Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Sirus]

Neither did I and now I feel bad :[

Keep on metaphorically trucking, Vector!

[LordSlowpoke]

I didn't send any PMs, also. I WOULDN'T BE OF ANY HELP ANYWAY SO I'M NOT EVEN SORRY

Chuunis were cute today. So that's nice.

[Kansa]

I'm really glad you are feeling better Vector, I'm sorry I didn't send any pms though

[Graknorke]

Libertarian Socialism is a thing.
The idea of nobody anywhere having power is something that I like the sound of.

[Helgoland]

Libertarian Socialism is a thing.
The idea of nobody anywhere having power is something that I like the sound of.

Heh, but fundamentally flawed: How do you prevent people from gaining power? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[Graknorke]

Libertarian Socialism is a thing.
The idea of nobody anywhere having power is something that I like the sound of.

Heh, but fundamentally flawed: How do you prevent people from gaining power? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

I know it's idealistic. Doesn't make me like the concept less.

[Owlbread]

I like to say that I am socially Libertarian but economically Statist. I have been attracted to Libertarian Socialism for the reasons Graknorke gives but I'd need more convincing before I consider it viable. My attitude towards anarchism and certain kinds of far-left Communes is that people should set those entities up, by all means yes, but outwith the state. Rather than overthrowing the entire government just yet, consider setting up a Commune and live as you choose, independent from anyone. People can join you if they wish and you won't have to sacrifice any of your principles to compete on an electoral level or "take power" by other means.

[Loud Whispers]

Heh, but fundamentally flawed: How do you prevent people from gaining power? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Mutual non-aggression pacts. An air force for every citizen. A nuclear submarine for every family. Tanks to work, battle tractors for leisure.

Seriously though? Most libertarians I've spoke to just say that government would still exist as an entity to ensure no such entities gain any power. Essentially a government whose power is to nullify power, including its own - presumably held in check by the people who constitute its constituents. Sort of like a Swedisd ultra-transparent minimized government.

[kaijyuu]

I don't see how economic entities like corporations could exist under such a system.

Unless monetary power is arbitrarily excluded?

[Loud Whispers]

I don't see how economic entities like corporations could exist under such a system.

That's the point I guess, a free market without corporatism.

[kaijyuu]

It would be pretty much impossible to do any large scale projects, then.

Also decentralized systems (of all types) have the problem of being ineffectual at countering problems from outside of itself. How would such a system raise an army to counter an invasion? It would have to be global in scale so there arent any outside influences.

[Flying Dice]

I don't see how economic entities like corporations could exist under such a system.

That's the point I guess, a free market without corporatism.

Which really isn't viable without a strong central government; free markets tend towards stratification, and large amounts of wealth in the hands of a relatively few individuals has throughout history always led to the establishment of mechanisms to turn that wealth into more wealth. You can't have an unregulated free market without that sort of pattern emerging, and you can't keep it in check without a fairly strong central government. It's one of the central paradoxes of all systems along that pattern: if you create a power vacuum, that does nothing but invite someone to fill it. You can't even retain a super-transparent government which solely exists to prevent the development of new concentrations of power, because that government would inevitably accumulate power.

Basically, any anarchist/libertarian/endgame Marxist system depends on every individual making an independent decision to refrain from accumulating power, which is functionally impossible at anything beyond a very low level of society and population. Either way, we've already reached a point where it's basically not possible to break down the extant state system into the sort of network of loosely connected micro-nations that would be necessary for that sort of stateless state.

[Loud Whispers]

It would be pretty much impossible to do any large scale projects, then.

Yup. Local projects only.
Of course, "local" would slowly begin expanding as soon as communities begin to realize greater profits could be had with greater scope in works, so I wonder how it wouldn't just eventually turn into feudalism.

Also decentralized systems (of all types) have the problem of being ineffectual at countering problems from outside of itself. How would such a system raise an army to counter an invasion? It would have to be global in scale so there arent any outside influences.

That'd be the second function of government, maintaining an army. And it does rely on isolation from the rest of the world in all but economic and cultural aspects. I suppose something like Switzerland or Finland could work, where in essence the majority of people are in the army or at least armed and trained so invasion is literally impossible to be profitable.

[Graknorke]

It would be pretty much impossible to do any large scale projects, then.

Also decentralized systems (of all types) have the problem of being ineffectual at countering problems from outside of itself. How would such a system raise an army to counter an invasion? It would have to be global in scale so there arent any outside influences.

The idea would be that people could do large scale projects, but it would be as a collection of equals rather than employees under a manager.

[kaijyuu]

It would be pretty much impossible to do any large scale projects, then.

Also decentralized systems (of all types) have the problem of being ineffectual at countering problems from outside of itself. How would such a system raise an army to counter an invasion? It would have to be global in scale so there arent any outside influences.

The idea would be that people could do large scale projects, but it would be as a collection of equals rather than employees under a manager.

Some projects (like making highways or jetliners or whatever) are simply too big for that. It'd be like a government where every citizen votes on every detail. We have representative governments for a reason, and these would have to get representatives too, which means individuals would have more power than other individuals, meaning...

No stable power vacuum exists as far as I know.