Topic: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults (Read 16528 times)

khearn · « **Reply #60 on:** May 13, 2011, 01:32:15 pm »

That looks like it might work. I'm assuming it does, since we know that Sphalerite actually tests stuff.

You might want to trigger each bridge a few times before closing the door over it and starting in the next bridge up the chain to maximize the chance of items getting up to the second bridge.

It'd still be a lot slower than just having dwarves do the hauling. But I suspect that will always be the case. This isn't about efficiency, this is about finding a way to make it work at all.

Sadrice · « **Reply #61 on:** May 16, 2011, 07:24:56 pm »

That is exactly the design I was pursuing, except with floodgates, before I realized they couldn't be placed over open space. I'm glad there's a way around that, though I don't see any good reason why it isn't allowed by default.

I'll try to build that tonight with the aid of my crack team of dwarven engineers running at [SPEED:1] (0 doesn't seem to work anymore), and I'll try and link it to my previous device to get a conveyor with no net z level change. I think designating the doors is going to be a pain in the ass...

Rather than have a bridge 1, 2, 3, 4... set up, have even bridges and odd bridges (and doors too), and set up the cycle so that the relevant sets of doors open/close, one set of bridges cycles maybe 5 or 10 times, invert the doors, cycle the other bridges, repeat. I designed a fluid logic system to automate this process last time I tried this, but it barely worked (I didn't realize bridges take longer than doors and floodgates), and was a nightmare to build and link up. I'll try to design a better one.

EDIT: Built it, it works, thinking about ways to automate it (the prototype is operated by four levers).

EDIT 2: Like the down conveyor, it goes much faster if it's a few tiles wide. Designed a fluid logic system to automate it, gonna try and build it, but my god this is confusing. 19 pressure plates linked to 56 doors/drawbridges/hatchcovers etc, not counting the conveyor itself, this is going to be a nightmare to link up, but I managed to get it down to one lever for an on/off switch, with an automatic reset and everything.

Graebeard · « **Reply #62 on:** May 18, 2011, 12:35:03 am »

This is encouraging. Do you have metrics for how well this performs or how badly it affects game speed?

Kaos · « **Reply #63 on:** May 18, 2011, 03:03:40 pm »

Well not really using bridges, but for a horizontal movement conveyor system what about a flush-belt?

Using gravity, an infinite source of water and an outflow, water fills a reservoir on top, open the hatch, water falls and flows left to the grate pushing the items, water falls through grate into reservoir at bottom, leaving items behind, profit!!

Code: [Select]

W~~~~~~~W
=H=======
Wx.....>W
=======G=
W       W
=========

W = walls
= = floor
x.......> = the item to be moved and the flow of movement
H = Hatch
G = Floor grate
~ = Water (no, not magma

)

alternatively using pumps, a closed system with limited water (will need to refill a little to replenish the water left behind as 1/7's) reservoir at bottom, pump draws water, pump outflow puts pressurized water flushing items all the way to the grate that returns water to the same container where it was pumped from, profit!

Code: [Select]

W PPx.....>W
=G========G=
W~~~~~~~~~~W
============

Judging by my latest fun with water while draining an aquifier, this system is actually quicker than hauling....

Sphalerite · « **Reply #64 on:** May 18, 2011, 03:06:07 pm »

The main problem with using water to push items around is the bug which causes objects being pushed by water to vanish. Whenever an object is pushed by liquid (water or magma) it has a chance to vanish into a limbo state where it is still accessible to dwarves, but no longer shows up when you examine the tile. Objects in this state aren't affected by liquids or temperature anymore, so they won't be pushed any further and will remain stuck in the conveyor.

Sadrice · « **Reply #65 on:** May 19, 2011, 01:02:48 am »

The bridge apparatus has no effect on game speed at all, as far as I can tell, but the last, half functional version of the fluid logic automation made it almost unplayably slow for me while it was turned on.

The downhill conveyor really doesn't need automation, just a single lever on repeat. Micromanaging the levers for the uphill one was much more cumbersome, and required more or less constant attention.

I'm a noob at mechanics, and may be vastly overcomplicating things, so if anyone knows of a simple way to set it up to cycle the odd bridges some number of times, close the odd doors and open the even ones, cycle the even bridges a while, flip the doors again and repeat, I would greatly appreciate it.

hjd_uk · « **Reply #66 on:** May 19, 2011, 09:43:36 am »

I've never made one but I've heard tales of "Goblin Repeaters"

Sphalerite · « **Reply #67 on:** June 08, 2011, 08:55:13 am »

Experiment: Determining the size required for a creature to be immune to bridges.

The next experiment conducted was to determine how large a creature could be before it could not be flung or crushed by a bridge. For the purposes of this experiment I created a creature with a series of castes in gradiated sizes, the scalebeast:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In the first experiment, I embarked with two of each size of this creature, and enough stone to build a retracting bridge and mechanisms to build a lever and connect it to the bridge. I then pastured the weightbeasts one at a time on the bridge and pulled the lever.

When the scalebeasts of size 500000 up to 1100000 were placed on the bridge, the bridge would still retract and extend, flinging the creatures. These creatures were too small to prevent the bridge from working.

When any scalebeast of size 1300000 or greater was placed on the bridge, the bridge would not retract. These creatures were large enough to prevent the bridge from working.

Curiously, of the two size 1200000 scalebeasts I brought, one would prevent the bridge from working and the other would not. This was consistent per-creature rather than being a random chance each time. It appears that even though all the creatures were specified to be the same size, there was still some creature-to-creature variation. I do not know how large this variation is, so I cannot put precise error bars on the measurement. At best all I can say is that the size limit to prevent a bridge from working is approximately 1200000.

In the default DF raws, the following creatures have an adult size greater than 1200000:

roc, blind cave ogre, cave dragon, bronze colossus, cyclops, dragon, draltha, elephant, ettin, manta ray, sturgeon, giant, hippo, hydra, jabberer, giant lion, ogre, rhinoceros, rutherer, sea monster, sea serpent, basking shark, great white shark, whale shark, giant tiger, walrus, whale

Any one of these creatures when on a bridge will prevent that bridge from operating. This only applies to the fully adult size - some of these creatures may have child stages small enough to not prevent a bridge from working.

In addition, most or all procedurally generated creatures (forgotten beasts, titans, demons, night creatures) are above the size limit.

Experiment #2: Testing if the weight limit is cumulative.

Using the same experimental setup as before, I took two size 1000000 scalebeasts, two size 1100000 scalebeasts, and the one size 1200000 scalebeast confirmed to be below the bridge limit, and placed them on the bridge. The combined sizes of these creatures was 5400000, well over the bridge size limit. The lever was then pulled. The bridge did retract and fling the creatures.

It appears that the size limit is not cumulative. A single creature of size greater than 1200000 will prevent a bridge from operating, but multiple creatures below that size will not. This agrees with experience I have had in my fortresses in which dozens of elves riding horses, bears, and moose all standing on one bridge did not prevent that bridge from retracting from under them.

Note that goblin sieges often arrive riding rutherers or jabberers, a single one of either which will prevent a bridge from working.

Experiment #3: Testing the limits of raising bridges (atomsmashers).

The prior experiment was repeated with raising rather than retracting bridges. The weight limit for raising bridges was found to be the same as for retracting bridges: approximately 1200000. Furthermore it was verified that multiple size 1000000 and 1100000 creatures could be crushed simultaneously, but a single size 1300000 creature would cause the bridge to deconstruct instead.

Remalle · « **Reply #68 on:** June 09, 2011, 03:49:09 pm »

*slow clap*
Thank you.

EveryZig · « **Reply #69 on:** June 09, 2011, 05:01:02 pm »

Some things I would like to know about bridgapulting (which are extremely relevant to the fortress defense mod):

Are flying creatures (on the same square as a walking creature would be) flung by bridges, and does this cause them to fall?

Do hatches / grates fling creatures, and do they have the same weight limit as bridges?

Sphalerite · « **Reply #70 on:** June 09, 2011, 05:39:14 pm »

Hatches and grates do not fling creatures, and have no weight limit.

I haven't specifically tested bridges on flying creatures, but I suspect them to be flung by bridges the same as non-flying creatures are.

EveryZig · « **Reply #71 on:** June 09, 2011, 05:52:36 pm »

Quote from: Sphalerite on June 09, 2011, 05:39:14 pm

I haven't specifically tested bridges on flying creatures, but I suspect them to be flung by bridges the same as non-flying creatures are.

The thing I am wondering is whether the fling will just move them around or if it will let you actually fling them into pits.

Sphalerite · « **Reply #72 on:** June 09, 2011, 05:57:03 pm »

Quote from: EveryZig on June 09, 2011, 05:52:36 pm

Quote from: Sphalerite on June 09, 2011, 05:39:14 pm
I haven't specifically tested bridges on flying creatures, but I suspect them to be flung by bridges the same as non-flying creatures are.
The thing I am wondering is whether the fling will just move them around or if it will let you actually fling them into pits.

Creatures which are flung by bridges are always stunned after they stop moving. I think that being stunned automatically causes a flying creature to fall out of the air, so a bridge should work for knocking flying creatures out of the air.

EveryZig · « **Reply #73 on:** June 09, 2011, 06:29:46 pm »

Quote from: Sphalerite on June 09, 2011, 05:57:03 pm

Creatures which are flung by bridges are always stunned after they stop moving. I think that being stunned automatically causes a flying creature to fall out of the air, so a bridge should work for knocking flying creatures out of the air.

So if floor hatches can drop giant things, and bridges can drop flying things, that means the only thing you can't kill with mechanisms, stone, and gravity is giant flying things (which I think the HFS are, sadly).

Sadrice · « **Reply #74 on:** June 10, 2011, 05:16:37 am »

Use a GCS to ground it, dropping it down a deep hole?

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Author Topic: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults (Read 16528 times)

khearn

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

Sadrice

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

Graebeard

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

Kaos

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

Sphalerite

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

Sadrice

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

hjd_uk

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

Sphalerite

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

Remalle

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

EveryZig

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

Sphalerite

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

EveryZig

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

Sphalerite

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

EveryZig

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults

Sadrice

Re: Dwarven science: Bridgeapaults