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[dakarian]

@Cheeetar

I remember Web's oversized post.  Hated it too since it was a "do what I say because I say it" post.  I swear, I would be able to follow him more if he simply explained himself.


I still don't like the defensive attitude, though.  If you believe someone is scum, then push them.  If you don't think you can convince the town, then start hunting for evidence from them.. keep prodding, questioning.  Find your evidence so that you can go right out and say "HE IS SCUM AND HERE IS WHY!".  Once you have it, you can start convincing the town why you're right. 

Trying to protect yourself by avoiding suspicion, though, backfires on you and causes MORE suspicion.  That's why it's better to attack then defend.

Btw, when prodding/questioning or even after your "HE IS SCUM EVERYONE!" post, be ready to READ the counter arguments.  If they kill your argument and you have no other evidence, then pull back and consider "what if he is town?"  Follow your gut: if it still says "he's scum" then don't let anyone stop you from pushing/prodding/questioning/hunting your target.  Just know that you need something more when you want to say "LYNCH EM!"

Now, for the last bit.. why is it that you assume that 'experienced' players can't make mistakes while town like you do?  This is in reference to the "If person is town then Dakarian is scum" comment.



@Josh

Speaking of gut: I don't have a read on you, but I always feel awkward when someone is ready to defend me, especially after wishing me dead earlier (back when no one was after me).  FOS Josh.  It's time you finally got into the spotlight.

[JoshuaFH]

Scum talk is scummy.

Dakarian.  I ain't afraid of no scare tactic.


FAKE-EDIT:

I don't know about Dakarian Webadict, despite my pressuring of him yesterday, I still get plenty of town tells from him. I'm assured even more of his towniness with Alex's flip, as his spontaneous, thought-out defense of him day 1 seems more justified. While I'm pretty sure this is my first game with him, I think a scum Dakarian wouldn't have jumped in to prevent a town Alex from lynching himself, and instead would have just let things take their course.

Mr.Person is also more likely town, since it's now revealed that Alex didn't have an ulterior motive in protecting him. Does not clear him completely though, as the very real chance of Alex being wrong is still there.

Talking about that though... ToonyMan.

ToonyMan, your contributions have dropped considerably. While we're pretty used to your fluffy zaniness, you posted only once last day, and have yet to contribute much today, despite posting 3 times.

I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I'll talk other people's posts in a while.

I'M CONTRIBUTING RIGHT NOW.

This is the three last scum,
Sir Josh
Dakarian
Cheeetar

Once again Toon, I know it's your style, but do you care to explain your choices to us?

More importantly, I have a stray feeling that you just want to follow WA around unquestionably. Stick as close to the confirmed townie as you can and be seen as town yourself perhaps?

@Josh

Speaking of gut: I don't have a read on you, but I always feel awkward when someone is ready to defend me, especially after wishing me dead earlier (back when no one was after me).  FOS Josh.  It's time you finally got into the spotlight.

I was after you because no one was after you. There was the occasional person saying they were suspicious of you, but no one really attacking you. I wanted to see if you'd overreact or underreact, but you remained cool as a cucumber, which really reaffirmed my previous belief in your towniness. I was going to say that yesterday, but Leaf up and ended the day unexpectedly, and my train of thought got lost between then and now.

@Webadict

I'm not quite sure what your logic is WA. Do you just want us to trust you, and not even try? I just want to ask, to get it out of the way.

[Zai]

ever since day one i have thought Mr. person was scum. he has had numerous scumtells and was almost day killed (alexhans refused to) but i believe he is the only target as of now.

Unvote. Mr.Person would you kindly lynch yourself? o wait... this is not bioshock...

What exactly were these scumtells, Diakron? What reasons are there that make him the "only target"? Don't just continue using vague generalities, give some specifics here. And if you were so sure M.P was scum, why did you vote Frelock immediately after Day 2 started, and for a completely invalid reason at that? It's like you took Meph's (proven to be scum) vote-list at face value, and didn't really try to scumhunt. You just went with the easiest guy to go after, even though you were allegedly so certain M.P is scum. You didn't even bother checking why Frelock hadn't voted.

And, probably irrelevant, but the "would you kindly lynch yourself?" bit sounded to me like an emulation of Cheeetar or TM.

[Diakron]

ever since day one i have thought Mr. person was scum. he has had numerous scumtells and was almost day killed (alexhans refused to) but i believe he is the only target as of now.

Unvote. Mr.Person would you kindly lynch yourself? o wait... this is not bioshock...

What exactly were these scumtells, Diakron? What reasons are there that make him the "only target"? Don't just continue using vague generalities, give some specifics here. And if you were so sure M.P was scum, why did you vote Frelock immediately after Day 2 started, and for a completely invalid reason at that? It's like you took Meph's (proven to be scum) vote-list at face value, and didn't really try to scumhunt. You just went with the easiest guy to go after, even though you were allegedly so certain M.P is scum. You didn't even bother checking why Frelock hadn't voted.

And, probably irrelevant, but the "would you kindly lynch yourself?" bit sounded to me like an emulation of Cheeetar or TM.

do like any normal person and go reread day 1 take 2. i am reverting to that as all the people i wanted to vote have cleared themselves in my eyes.

[dakarian]

@diakron

Having the person try to discover your own motive won't do.  It's easy for us to come up with a reason that fits your actions back then. 

Instead YOU should have, on hand, your reasons for still wanting to lynch someone. 

So, if your reasons now are the same as Day 1... what WERE your reasons then.. in your own words. 

And yes, we'll need the specific scumtells.  At least give the idea on where they are located: specific enough so that we can find it without reading through the whole day.

[webadict]

You aren't giving me much to work with, web, as far as defense goes.  If there was any "you are scum because..." I could debate or argue or explain my reasoning. 

But you said "I'm killing you because the scum want me to stop killing off of this list."  What am I supposed to say, "Don't kill me, I'm town"?  I know I wouldn't stand by that.

I focused on Josh because I don't want two quicklynches to end the game.  If Josh was scum then I'm willing to die to kill him.  I was slightly hoping you had some strong proof on Josh that you were still hiding.  It sounds like you aren't.

"I am town".  I said it.  I AM town.  However, only a fool would accept that: I know I wouldn't. 

What I would RATHER do is actually hear your reasons.  WHY am I scum?  What have I done that you are questioning now?  Give me those reasons and I'll say more than empty words like 'I am town."  I will PROVE I'm town.  Don't just use my words now.  You put me on that list long before Day 3.  You have reasons to want me dead.  I want them!

If you don't want to say them, or can't say them and keep voting, then there's nothing for me to say.  Instead, I'll just focus on the others and help the town find the rest of the scum so long as I'm still alive. 


Btw, about the 'doctor' comment, you used the idea that others, like Cheeetar, would've tried to kill you while I wouldn't.  I said a good reason why a team of 3 mafia with someone like Cheeetar would still not kill you: they fear the doctor.  I'm not the only one that would avoid that.  That's why I brought him up.  Now, why would someone like me as town NOT mention him when going into "why Webaddict isn't dead" theories?

Cheeetar isn't scum. I'm 99.9% sure. And that's pretty sure. I'm sure he could easily follow me as CT. If Cheeetar wanted to kill me, he'd have a pretty terrible reason to do so. Anyhow, you're scum because I feel like you are.

Basically, the same reason why I thought Mephansteras was scum. Am I supposed to think that I can explain something like that? I'd like to think of it as a sixth sense. I can tell fakes. You seem fake. I could list millions of reasons why, but it wouldn't matter, would it? I listed several for Mephansteras. Did those matter? No. Not at all. Because I'm a moron or something. So no one believed me.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked Meph. Why are you town?

[Cheeetar]

@Cheeetar

I remember Web's oversized post.  Hated it too since it was a "do what I say because I say it" post.  I swear, I would be able to follow him more if he simply explained himself.


I still don't like the defensive attitude, though.  If you believe someone is scum, then push them.  If you don't think you can convince the town, then start hunting for evidence from them.. keep prodding, questioning.  Find your evidence so that you can go right out and say "HE IS SCUM AND HERE IS WHY!".  Once you have it, you can start convincing the town why you're right. 

Trying to protect yourself by avoiding suspicion, though, backfires on you and causes MORE suspicion.  That's why it's better to attack then defend.

Btw, when prodding/questioning or even after your "HE IS SCUM EVERYONE!" post, be ready to READ the counter arguments.  If they kill your argument and you have no other evidence, then pull back and consider "what if he is town?"  Follow your gut: if it still says "he's scum" then don't let anyone stop you from pushing/prodding/questioning/hunting your target.  Just know that you need something more when you want to say "LYNCH EM!"

Now, for the last bit.. why is it that you assume that 'experienced' players can't make mistakes while town like you do?  This is in reference to the "If person is town then Dakarian is scum" comment.

Most of that isn't anything I can reply to, but for the final bit: I don't like assuming they just made a mistake, and let them past. From the mafia games I have played lots of people have tried to pass off scum actions as 'mistakes', more so than people have made genuine mistakes.

[Cheeetar]

Also: I'm not willing to go against Webadict after he turned out right with Meph. Dakarian.

[dakarian]

@Cheeetar

Most of that was more advice than accusation.  I'm just big on explaining things. 

Although Web is wrong about me, I don't have too much more to put against you.  Disliking how Day 1 was handled isn't the same as believing you were scummy for it.  Unvote

No, the vote you did on me doesn't change that.


@Web

Thought so.  You're running off your gut.  You also seem pissed over Day 1.  Silly that, since it's good for the town to scumhunt rather than bandwagon.  I can't help the fact that the town decided to follow my lead over and over.  All I could do is hunt the best way I know how.


Very well.  You ask me "How I am town."  Very messy question, but I'll answer anyway.

I don't follow bandwagons, nor ever ask the town to follow me blindly.  When Josh made his offer to reset, I didn't deny him or jump with him: I saw where the town could turn a semi-risk into a near-sure bet by asking for confirmation.  That way, the only way for Josh to lie is to have a second scum with his  'known PR' cover for him.  I didn't like the idea of trading a scum for a Beloved Princess, especially since it would destroy the chance of a good Day 1 discussion, give the mafia 2 free kills, leave you dead, and possibly lead to another kill from the Chaotic role (since all of us would have <2 posts in Day 2.. since NO posts would have occurred).  Trading 2 scum wouldn't be so bad though. 

Of course, chances are, it would just lead to someone confirming and us using the reset, as is what happened.

After that, I scumhunted.  I've proven that I don't tunnel vision, nor do I just accept other's arguments.  I listen to them, argue with them, prod them, until I get good or bad answers.  If I want to kill, I don't DEMAND the town to kill, but instead ask them to take notice.  I don't ask for a 'counterargument' to go "OMG YOU DEFEND SCUM!" I WANT those counterarguments so that I can make sure "I" am sound in my reasoning.  I could've easily kept pushing on Alex: you were being rude, Alex was being a jerk, and many MANY wanted him dead.  It wouldn't take much just to go Tunnel Vision and pass around Person's post and your outcries to finish the kill.  I mean, JEESH, YOU got sick of him enough to put him on the Kill list. 

But I didn't.  I listened to Person's argument and shut down that bandwagon.  I never fully confirmed him town, but I did pull away.

Btw, I asked you about your "don't kill him" since you didn't say whether that was towards Meph or Panda.  The day ended before you replied, though. 



Fact is, I've shown myself as town time and again, from acting in the town's best interests to taking risks that would hurt my credibility or even kill me.  I avoided mindless following and explained my actions every step of the way.  THAT is why the town followed me Day 1 and not you.  For every explanation post you gave, you had 2 or 3 that browbeat the town or pushed it towards mindless following. 

You claim you could come up with a million reasons.  I doubt that.  I bet if that gut was removed, THESE would be your reasons:

1. You swear the mafia is trying to stop you from following the list:

(which sounds odd since it means the Chaotic role (or Arg if his 'random' did the kill) is scum or else the mafia were VERY lucky.  It also brings out the "What if the Mafia WANTS you to follow that list" WIFOM.  It also grows weak since you're willing to kill me for being on the list but NOT josh, meaning you AREN'T just following the list, contrary to what you said when you first posted.)

2. I've lead the town towards multiple town deaths.

(Which, like I point out to Cheeetar, is Pot-kettle-black since much of your list had Townies as well.  Bad reasoning to assume that someone can't possibly have the same idea you do)

3. I'm hard to read as town since there's too many town-tells.  That reeks of the "Too Town" argument.


The best argument given so far is that I didn't "directly say I was town" and that I mentioned the Doctor before others have.  The strongest force the town has is that Web is after me.  The strongest forces you have, Web, is that the gut that found Vector in BM1 and Meph here points to me. 



I'll end it all with this.  If your gut still streams "Scum" then go and vote, but DON'T shorten the day.  If I only have a few RL days to work with then I'm going to go scumhunting.  If I live the day, I'll find a proper scum to kill.  If I die, I'll make sure to provide enough for you to find the proper scum tomorrow. 

If you have any other questions or issues, I'll gladly answer, but if that's all then don't mind me when I turn to other matters.

[dakarian]

Since we're speaking of guts, I might as well follow my own.


@Diakron

I'll be waiting for that answer from you about Person

@Josh

Considering you know Toony, what about him is exactly NOT Toony-town?

Note I don't say 'Normal town'.  We all know Toony-town doesn't act like how we want him to act.  We don't have time to hunt folks we don't like.  What makes him SCUM rather than his normal self?

Furthermore, is Toony your only target?  Any idea on who the other two are?



@Mod

Boksi probably needs a replacement by now, or at least a prod.  Person needs a prod as well.

[Mr.Person]

I've already posted today you silly bear. I'm just lurking I'm just waiting so I won't post at 1 in the morning and say something stupid again. In the meantime, I think Dakarian is town (He's been super helpful) and I think Zaithemaster is unhelpful but probably town, and I'm going to think heavily about Cheeetar. He could go either way, depending on what he says.

[Archangel]

God damn you whoever is ChaoticJim! Bloody bastard!

[Boksi]

I aten't dead, you fools.



Alright, I figure I should at least try to contribute.

So I made a 1-5 scale of suspicion:

ToonyMan: He's a loon, and while he seems sincere I really can't tell, so 3.

chaoticjosh: My gut reads him as a little bit townier than most townies, which translates to "might be a good actor", especially since he didn't actually flip when he go lynched, but I'm not certain enough to go anywhere with hit, so 3.

Zaithemaster: He hasn't been feeling well, apparently, but his posts... They seem pretty pointless, the few of them he's made recently. Diakron is an obvious target, so Zai might be trying to quickly start a bandwagon and then retreat into the shadows. Until proven otherwise, he's a 4 in my book. If you can respond, Zai, that number is still quite malleable, because I'm in no way certain. If I can get more info I can be more sure.

Diakron: His lack of capitalization and general attitude may make him look scummier than he is, but even taking that into account his behavior is either incredibly foolish or scummy. I rate him 4.

Mr.Person: Abrasive and a bit passive-agressive, but I'm chalking that up to his personality than scumminess. I think he's most likely town, so he's a mere 2.

Cheeetar: He's trying to convince people he's town, but it kinda falls flat on its face on me because he's overdoing it a bit. It might be he's a townie who's gotten flustered and acting rashly, but I'm pegging him as a 3 with a chance of raising it.

dakarian: I'm not going to post a large argument for or against him because he already did. He's not a confirmed townie and so he's not completely off the hook, but he's swayed me and so he's a mere 1.

webadict: Being a confirmed townie does not grant you permission to act like a douchebag lording over everyone else.

Frelock: I honestly don't know. I'm a little short on time and he doesn't seem to be posting much, so I'm putting him at a 3 by default.

I'm going to mull over things for a while before voting though. See how things progress.

[dakarian]

Welcome back boksi.

Judging off what you wrote so far, almost everyone is a 'neutral' while Zaithe and Diakron are the most scumminess to you.

Sidenote: Frelock was replaced by Nihilist.  You said you didn't have much time when you got to him so, when you do get to him, keep it in mind.

To be true though, your argument for Zaithe seems based around Daikron's towniness.  I imagine the reverse would then be true?  I guess it'll be made clear once you finish your analysis and place your vote.

[JoshuaFH]

@Josh

Considering you know Toony, what about him is exactly NOT Toony-town?

Note I don't say 'Normal town'.  We all know Toony-town doesn't act like how we want him to act.  We don't have time to hunt folks we don't like.  What makes him SCUM rather than his normal self?

Furthermore, is Toony your only target?  Any idea on who the other two are?

I wouldn't say I KNOW Toon, as I've really only played a handful of games with him, but if I had to say it, it'd be because scum toon reacts badly to tension. Not pressure, but tension. By that I mean the more 'serious' the day is, he gradually gets quieter and contributes less, opting to go with safer bets.

As for who else might be scum? I'm thinking:

Diakron (For generally being suspicious and not making sense)
Cheeetar (For reasons being made apparent by Dakarian)
Boksi (For lurking up until now)
Frelock (Replaced Brothernature, then is replaced himself by Nihilist? I think that's the first time that's ever happened in mafia. Not quite sure what to say.)

WA said that Cheeetar is very likely town, so I'm willing to mark up his awkward defenses as general awkwardness if WA can assure me there's solid evidence for his claim.

@Boksi

I'm glad you could join us.

I'm going to mull over things for a while before voting though. See how things progress.

I hope you can stay with us more consistently from now on.