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[dakarian]

yes that was a miss post sorry

...Wait. You're admitting to making a post implicating yourself and your scum buddies?

Wow. You're honest, I guess. o,0

Or were you saying that that post was intended for another Mafia? In which case the stuff you said in the edit seems out of place. Not to mention that editing posts is forbidden, something you've berated brothernature for doing.

I'm thinking you're scum. RedWarrior0 can wait for now. Unvote and vote Diakron.

Quick question: which post was edited? 

[Diakron]

yes that was a miss post sorry

...Wait. You're admitting to making a post implicating yourself and your scum buddies?

Wow. You're honest, I guess. o,0

Or were you saying that that post was intended for another Mafia? In which case the stuff you said in the edit seems out of place. Not to mention that editing posts is forbidden, something you've berated brothernature for doing.

I'm thinking you're scum. RedWarrior0 can wait for now. Unvote and vote Diakron.

ignore that post i am in a hated debate in 2 other mafias and i'm quite pissed right now its getting hard to post without swearing...

yes that was a miss post sorry

[Zai]

Quick question: which post was edited? 

This one:

ignore that post i am in a hated debate in 2 other mafias and i'm quite pissed right now its getting hard to post without swearing...

But I know why you're asking: usually the post has the « Last Edit: ... by ... » bit at the end. However, if you can get the edit in within about 2 minutes (estimated; not sure if that's the exact limit), it won't include that 'Last Edit:' line. Diakron got to it in time.

[Pre-post Edit:] ...Diakron, that doesn't do anything for me. Please don't think so little of me so as to not read your posts, especially the very ones I quoted. Actually explain rather than just quoting posts that were not clear in the first place, please.

[webadict]

Quick question: which post was edited? 

This one:

ignore that post i am in a hated debate in 2 other mafias and i'm quite pissed right now its getting hard to post without swearing...

But I know why you're asking: usually the post has the « Last Edit: ... by ... » bit at the end. However, if you can get the edit in within about 2 minutes (estimated; not sure if that's the exact limit), it won't include that 'Last Edit:' line. Diakron got to it in time.

[Pre-post Edit:] ...Diakron, that doesn't do anything for me. Please don't think so little of me so as to not read your posts, especially the very ones I quoted. Actually explain rather than just quoting posts that were not clear in the first place, please.

Read Beginner Mafia 3.

Just let him cool down.

[Zai]

Read Beginner Mafia 3.

Just let him cool down.

...I think I see now.

o,0

For now, unvote Diakron and revote RedWarrior0. Do more of your own work, please. Provide arguments. Don't just vote; vote for reasons that you can share. Don't just go off of other people's arguments.

I notice that when I say you shouldn't just be bandwagoning with the confirmed townie, you go directly against what said townie says to do. This has nervous newbie scum written all over it.

[dakarian]

Yeah, Alexhans is VERY anti-lurker. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that just from this game, much less any other game he's ever played in.

What's with the resurgence of the Alex+Me hate, what exactly has convinced you guys to start voting us again?

Alex's failed bet against Toony was the tipping point:  The exchange:

I'll propose you this, though.  If Mr.Person doesn't flip scum we lynch you... how about that?  Im not actually sure if youre scum (because you always act anti-town to the max and have no frigging right to point one mistake i make) but removing you out of the game would cause me inmense pleasure.

Toonyman replies with a "WIFOM" bit, to which alexhans replies: Answer me!  He even quotes his proposal.  Toony pulls back and Alex replies with this:

Toonyman...  You act as if you were sure... but then you say you won't do it... If you're scum and Mr.Person is town then you're not going to do this because you KNOW he will flip town.  If you're town you don't know.  But you're not acting like it.

Toonyman replies to that with this:

Yes then.  I'll take your offer SCUM-BUCKET.

Day-Kill Mr.Person right now.

Alex replies with some insults about Toony's game playing, then eventually ends with this:

As I said.  I won't hammer Mr.Person.   

But I will give you the names of who should be lynched (scum and maybe one or two anti-town players just to make sure) before the day is over.

Then you'll maybe learn a bit about the game.

He made a bet.. A BET on Toonyman.  When Toony started to pull back, Alex attacked him for it, saying that he's scum for not taking the bet.

Toony takes the bet, Alex pulls back insulting Toony bitterly.



You can't have it both ways.  You can't make a bet and condemn a person for pulling back, then pull back and declare yourself town.  I REEKS of bluffing and a very strong scumtell.  That he insults someone he then believes is town is anti-town since you are belittling someone you SHOULD be working with.


That pretty much solidified things with me.  I write a post asking him to explain himself regarding his constant defense of you.  He ignores it for a while, then later insults me for it. 


Activity doesn't mark you town.  The way you carry yourself.  The methods you use.  The reasoning you use.  Your ability to stay consistant, stay reckless, stay aggressive, stay untrusting, be willing to desire the truth, and your transparency make you town.  Alex held that for a while so I left him be.

When he let Toony get the better of him he made a mistake.. a BIG mistake.  Eventually, I realized the BIG reason why I wanted him town was because it would mean a free town kill.  That's NOT a good reason in a game like this.  Once that was done and once I saw that Alex was looking for excuses not to kill Archangel (a claim?  Here?  For discussion?  Talking about his role won't make him less scummy), his hyperdefense of you, Person, and that all he's after are lurkers, of which we have no information for, it was clear.

The short post with the vote?  It was half because I had already said what I needed to say about him.  The other half was poetic irony: a notorious WOTer, after seeing the biggest WOT in his career, writes quick little post.


Why you?  Well, when you two defend each other, it adds to your link.  As such, when someone suspects Person, they link Alex in.  When I suspect Alex, your defense of him makes me go "hmmmm"

I asked Alex, and I get insults.  Will I get the same from you, Person, when I ask this?

Why do you feel, to the point of risking your own self, that Alexhans is town?

[dakarian]

Quick question: which post was edited? 

This one:

ignore that post i am in a hated debate in 2 other mafias and i'm quite pissed right now its getting hard to post without swearing...

But I know why you're asking: usually the post has the « Last Edit: ... by ... » bit at the end. However, if you can get the edit in within about 2 minutes (estimated; not sure if that's the exact limit), it won't include that 'Last Edit:' line. Diakron got to it in time.

[Pre-post Edit:] ...Diakron, that doesn't do anything for me. Please don't think so little of me so as to not read your posts, especially the very ones I quoted. Actually explain rather than just quoting posts that were not clear in the first place, please.

..oh.  I didn't know about the 2 minutes thing. 


Just read over Diakron in BM3.  To be a little blunt, it's one of two things: either Diakron slipped in juggling several games at once and that bit is based on another game as he says in Beginner Mafia 3,

Or he's not only mafia here but is using Beginner Mafia 3 to cover himself here.


Note that the latter isn't a scumtell, but a DIRECT violation of game rules since you CANNOT use one game to defend yourself, even slightly, over the other (using BM3 to provide a reason for a mess up here).

For now, we're best to put that to the side for a second.  MOD: You can analyze the quick chats and this chat.  With that, you can tell whether that chat was meant for this game or another.  If it's for this game and Diakron posted what was meant for mafia quick chat, I believe we'll need to look into whether the talk in BM3 is a violation AND I question whether it has ruined this game.

If it was meant for another game, then we can just let it be and put it to the side.

@Diakron

If you haven't gone to rest yet, go rest.  I believe that was for another game and, thus, it shouldn't affect this game.  Best to let it go for now.


@everyone else

Can we please calm down and hold on the snide comments and put downs?  It's NOT helping us AT ALL. 

[Alexhans]

Ok...

I was gonna post the following...

"Well...  I think I've spewed enough venom in this game to last for a while so from now on I'll be a nice and understanding person.

No more sarcasm for you to swallow.

The reason for the amount of poison I've spread over you comes from the fact that you've been all calling me stupid right in my face.  Implying that I'm scum with Mr.Person is the worst insult any of you can say to me.  For me to defend a scumbuddy that was obviously doomed I would have to be dumbest player ever.  I'm not.  It annoys me inmensely that you try to lynch me or accuse me with that basis.  Especially when it's based in too many assumptions. 

and the worst part is most of you were suspicious of Mr.Person but when I defended him you jumped on me without even knowing his allignment.  It doesn't make sense for you to pair me with someone who hasn't yet flipped anything.  Yours is much worse WIFOM than anything I've said but you're willing to blindly trust it. 

All in all.  People are going for what they would like the game to be instead of what it is.  It would be so cool if we were both scum and we were defending each other.  So easy.  But it never is.

You've got to rethink this game and look everywhere trying to find the real deal.  Not what seems like the great offer.  It's a scam.

Time to meditate about our actions.  Myself included."

But now I'm almost regreting it.  I want to go back to cursing the world.  I haven't analyzed exactly who bandwaggoned me or why but I'll look into it tomorrow.  I expect real reasons.  The fact that I may annoy you or something is not an excuse.  The fact that you're trying to lynch a daykill town PR will be also remembered.  The fact that people wanted to rush me into killing someone will also be remembered.  The fact that people are not giving their opinions on most stuff will also be remember.

Good night.

[Alexhans]

I beg you to read my posts.  I don't have a town read on Mr.Person solely based on meta.  In fact, right now.  Meta is practically irrelevant.  He has given enough town tells throughout the whole game.  Read my posts please.  Don't create your own false ideas. 

Dakarian.  I won't debate with you forever but I'm dissapointed that your response to the post you asked for was 3 lines of indignation and a vote.  You've been clearly offended by my words wich I, honestly, don't really regret because it will teach you that you can NOT allow emotions to intervene with your game.  I've been flamed pretty hard on some games but was able to realize that the other guy was just emotional and finally managed to find scum and convince him I was not the devil or something.

I will only encourage you to read back my reasons for pulling that stunt with Toonyman.  If you read it convinced I'm scum you'll probably see it as a scumtell but it was actually a really useful play.

I've been using my killing power as a threat to get discussion (Notice how I even threatened to kill people who I obv. couldn't because they were nowhere near a vote majority).   I never intended to use it as fast as I could (especially after the web experience) but to use my better judgement with it.

[dakarian]

Cursing the world is part of what gets you in this situation.  It means you aren't arguing constructively.  It means you'll make mistakes you don't plan to.  It'll mean you aren't playing as well as you should.  You and Mr. person didn't just piss off everyone with your bad attitude, you ruined your defense.

Simply put, when someone asks you a question, and you answer with "that's just bullshit" instead of ANSWERING the question, you've ruined your defense.  Nevermind the swear, you could've said "oh, I'm so sorry, but that's not really the best way of going about things, but that's ok" and you STILL end up with a ruined defense.

You say it doesn't make sense for us to pair you with someone who hasn't flipped yet.  Well, it doesn't make sense for you to go crazy to defend someone who hasn't flipped yet.  I've all but said that I believe Toony is town and yet, if everyone bandwagoned them, I wouldn't destroy myself over it because I DO NOT KNOW HIS ALIGNMENT.  I could be wrong and he could be scum.  I would have to read over those posts they put.  Even if I believe he's town, if I couldn't counter the arguments, I would be forced to accept them, or at least let them carry it out.  If they had a poor argument, I would push them on it, but I wouldn't call them all morons for following suit.  At worst, if they killed him and he flipped town, an analysis of the bandwagon might net a scum.


The link between you two exists for one and ONLY one reason: YOU KEEP REINFORCING IT!  I've tried hard.. HARD to think of you two seperately.  I considered you town and Person scum.  I thought of Person as neutral while you were scum.  I had you as town and him as neutral at one point (when Archangel was in my sights)

Yet every time.. EVERY SINGLE TIME I even poke at one of you.. even the smallest poke, I get BOTH of you attacking me, insulting me, threatening me, accusing me.


Now you want sympathy.  "Oh no, the town thinks I'm some stupid idiot person scum.  They are so blind and I can't do anything to save them.  God, please bless these poor blind souls and bring them the Light of Truth before they doom themselves to Hell."

What would be my dream?  If you had hammered Archangel, he flipped scum, and we strung up Panda as scum.  After that, Person makes a mistake and we net the third scum, winning the game in 2 days (3 scum is part of the dream ). 

You being town with a well controlled hammer was my dream.  YOU ruined that.



Either you aren't reading or you are playing dumb in that last part. "I" am the one who called for your death.  I started the bandwagon, even to the point of counter arguing the Confirmed Townie to do it.  You dying is on my head, and I'll gladly risk me being wrong and killing the 'town dayvig' to do it.  Unlike your "Just kill the lurkers" self, "I" don't kill 'useless' or 'annoying' people.  Bokai looks to be even more anti-town than all of the mafia combined, but I believe he's a genuine Uncaring Townie at the moment.  I HATE the belittling your posts sometimes get peppered with, but trust me, I'm not hanging you for it.

I'm hanging you because I believe you are scum.  I believe you are an aggressive scum that tried to use your hammer for a quick kill then got sidetracked by the Reset.  I believe you use your aggressive and analysis to throw off the town and attempt to push lurkers to feed the town some easy kills.  I believe you realized that you've been too close to Person and know that inconsistency gets people killed faster than anything else.  You were right there: I go nuts over that.

I believe you used that pro-town look plus our dependence on your hammer to look pure and kept Person alive using those features.  Don't fuss, it worked and worked WELL.  We sat confused at you but in the end, we had a nice big bandwagon on Archangel.  You even flung a nice 'wait for his claim' like a good well-trained townie.. even though this is the wrong game for such talk.

The problem was Toony.  Toony is crazy.  Toony gets tunnelvisioned very easily.  He gets people angry with his mess.  He's not useless though.  An angry mafia dealing with unconventional attacks makes mistakes.  They get angry, hostile, and will do anything to get him to just shut up.

Like make a bet they can't honor. 


If you gave up on Person, I would've saw you as inconsistent, no matter how Person flipped.  If you took the bet...well.. who knows since you decided not to.  PERHAPS, if you let toony walk away and let it go, I would consider it a null tell: who knows what would happen, then just consider trusting you.

But you wanted toony to shut up.  He stepped away and  you thought "OO yes, That's scummy!" and charged.  It would've worked: I would've saw it and joined you with pressuring him. 

But you really should've just shut up about it and let him run.  Instead you tried to kill.  Toony doubled back on you and took the bet, trapping you in your own game.


But don't bother with Toony.  The conversation ended soon after and everyone went on their own merry way until I showed up. 

Now here we are.  You're stuck and back on insulting the town again.  Now you want sympathy with an emotional outburst.  A pity Vector taught me better a while back. 


I'll give you the advice I gave Arch.  If you ARE somehow town, get to hunting and find the scum.  Stop wasting time defending yourself and others endlessly and get to the attack.  If you die, it'll clear your words and add weight and weaken your rivals.  If you find a scum, the town will, after your death, push them, prod them, and perhaps lynch them.  1 town for 1 scum isn't a bad way to play after all.  I'd give up a free day hammering for that.

In the least, stop moaning about your fate.  You sound like a scum looking for some key, some words that will save your life.  The problem: Not being willing to die is the ultimate scum tell.



So what's your response to that, Alex?

[Pandarsenic]

Alexhans, I understand you know what you've been doing would be bad scum play - but like it or not, Mr.Person has tied himself to you through his constant agreement and you've reciprocated. While I could believe Mr.Person made such a mistake and forced you to defend him, I suspect you would deal with it in a different manner - bussing him then claiming he was scum trying to look like town by encouraging people to go with a townie who was wrong about things, to be specific. Of course, the fact that you're saying you wouldn't deal with it this way creates WIFOM, but that's pointless to get into. What isn't pointless is that Toony has accepted your bet and you won't go through with it. I'm fairly certain at least one of you, Mr.Person, Toony, and Dakarian is scum.

I still don't like Mr.Person's behavior earlier, particularly in regards to telling us not to think for ourselves and just blindly follow Alexhans, and if Toony took the bet, he probably has a decent chance of success.

I think Toony's psychotic push succeeded in its purpose - causing scum to reveal themselves under pressure.

I'll unvote and return to Mr.Person because I want Toony's bet fulfilled if he still does.

[Mr.Person]

Alexhans, I understand you know what you've been doing would be bad scum play - but like it or not, Mr.Person has tied himself to you through his constant agreement and you've reciprocated. While I could believe Mr.Person made such a mistake and forced you to defend him, I suspect you would deal with it in a different manner - bussing him then claiming he was scum trying to look like town by encouraging people to go with a townie who was wrong about things, to be specific. Of course, the fact that you're saying you wouldn't deal with it this way creates WIFOM, but that's pointless to get into. What isn't pointless is that Toony has accepted your bet and you won't go through with it. I'm fairly certain at least one of you, Mr.Person, Toony, and Dakarian is scum.

I still don't like Mr.Person's behavior earlier, particularly in regards to telling us not to think for ourselves and just blindly follow Alexhans, and if Toony took the bet, he probably has a decent chance of success.

I think Toony's psychotic push succeeded in its purpose - causing scum to reveal themselves under pressure.

I'll unvote and return to Mr.Person because I want Toony's bet fulfilled if he still does.

I love how you guys are leaving me out of the bet, like I'm some kind of spectator. I don't want to get day killed simply because not only will that be a waste of a day kill, but more importantly, IT WON'T TELL YOU ANYTHING EXCEPT MY ALIGNMENT! Ok, great, now what? I can see it now, you guys would simply ignore my scum list (Pandarsenic, Archangel, and any of Diakron, Broski, Cheeetar,ToonyMan, and Zaithemaster, in order of most likely to least likely, this is up to date). Hell, all the damn scum on the bandwagon are probably just looking to either A) Break up a powerful town base or B)Make Alexhans look innocent/ToonyMan look bad or C)Make a whole hose of bandwagoners look bad (Depends on how much of the wagon is scum and how much of it is town.

I STILL haven't gotten an answer I'm satisfied with that explain why people think I'm scummy. I've brought up points, I've argued, I've scumhunted, I've even pushed people (Sadly, on Pandarsenic made himself scummier, and I don't think I've explained that one, I'll do it tomorrow)

Hey, you guys wanna know why I think Alexhans is town? It's simple, actually. It's also meta. When Alexhans pulls crazy stunts or schemes, he's pretty much always town. He correctly guesses as scum that pulling the stunts puts a TON of suspicion on himself. And would you look at that, he's gotten a ton of suspicion on himself! Holy shit, it's like we're psychic! No, wait, it's called deductive reasoning.

I want somebody to say, with a straight face and without lying, that thinking another player is town is scummy, because I'll tell you for a FACT, thinking another player is town is both common and a null tell. Well, until we start getting roleflips, but since we don't, nobody has that kind of knowledge.

Now, if you think, say, that Alexhans is scummy, thinking I'm scum by relation is stupid, until the roleflip comes in. Yes, I've said it: Unless you can confirm the side of one player, you CANNOT get tells from other players based solely on their opinion of each other.

I'm willing to risk that Alexhans is scum because, at the moment, I feel very confident he's town. If he roleflips scum and then the rest of you guys bandwagon on me, I will at least post my suspicion list and put as much pressure as possible onto anybody I think is scum. I'd probably do my damndest to argue that he tricked me, but I already know it would never work (This, btw, is the reason why I would NEVER do this if we were both scum. As soon as one of us dies, the other one is the next lynched, guaranteed.). My expectation is for him to flip town, however. In fact, in a best case scenario, he never flips until the game is over. I just don't want people I think are townies to be lynched. What, exactly, is wrong with that?

Hell, I haven't really seen anything that convinces me Alexhans is scum either.

@Dakarian: You're timid and afriad of death. Damnit, if you think ToonyMan is town, you should be defending him from anything you think is wrong. Anything less is, well, scummy. As you said, only scum is afraid of what their image is or death.

The link between you two exists for one and ONLY one reason: YOU KEEP REINFORCING IT!  I've tried hard.. HARD to think of you two seperately.  I considered you town and Person scum.  I thought of Person as neutral while you were scum.  I had you as town and him as neutral at one point (when Archangel was in my sights)

Yet every time.. EVERY SINGLE TIME I even poke at one of you.. even the smallest poke, I get BOTH of you attacking me, insulting me, threatening me, accusing me.

You've admitted it, since the link exists only because we reinforce it, it can't exist because we're on the scum team

On a more serious note, well no shit Sherlock, what were you expecting, us to roll over and bow to your will? I think Alexhans is town, so I defend him. He thinks I'm town, he defends me. ANYTHING ELSE WOULD BE SCUMMY, PERIOD.

Whil I was typing this, I just realized something. Imagine, for a second, Alexhans is scum and I'm town. Would he not of, you know, acted on his bet with ToonyMan? Not only would it kill off a townie (At the town's request, no less), but it also would have made him seem less scummy and put a major egg on ToonyMan's face as well as half the rest of the town. This just makes me all the more certain of Alexhans not being scum. Of course, it could be, say, a ToonyMan Alexhans scumteam, but if that's the case, I precongratulate you two on managing to be hard to detect... but also really stupid.

[Pandarsenic]

Just for reference, my vote is still on Archangel until Toony will confirm if he wants to go through with it. I don't really recall Archangel standing out but webby wants him out so I'll just go with that, because you guys will piss and moan to no end if I vote for whom I consider to be scummy, and have argued to be scummy, and have voted for his scumtacularity.

[Archangel]

and I don't think Alex is being focused on enough.

Focused enough on what?

I will rephrase that, since you seem to have misinterpreted it. People weren't questioning, doubting or suspecting you enough.

Archangel (His comment about Alexhans not being focused on enough is total bullshit, he's stealing the spotlight right now).

See? Mr.Person read it right.
Anyway, I'm going to do other stuff for a while, so I probably won't say anything else. But I'm willing to die, and If I do, I want Alex to come with me.

[JoshuaFH]

Heh, wow. I really don't know how to say this, but Webadict, you're wrong. Alexhans is scum. I'm not sure what logic you're using or if you have some special info you're not telling us, but any plans you might have of forcing Alex to daykill for the town is spoilt completely by the fact that Alex isn't going to listen to anyone except himself, and he'll fabricate whatever excuse is necessary to keep from using it on who he doesn't want to use it on.

MP, don't think anything I say is an insult to your intelligence, but you picked up on a theory I've been entertaining for awhile:

I'm willing to risk that Alexhans is scum because, at the moment, I feel very confident he's town. If he roleflips scum and then the rest of you guys bandwagon on me, I will at least post my suspicion list and put as much pressure as possible onto anybody I think is scum. I'd probably do my damndest to argue that he tricked me, but I already know it would never work (This, btw, is the reason why I would NEVER do this if we were both scum. As soon as one of us dies, the other one is the next lynched, guaranteed.). My expectation is for him to flip town, however. In fact, in a best case scenario, he never flips until the game is over. I just don't want people I think are townies to be lynched. What, exactly, is wrong with that?

If there's any reason at all to believe you're town, it's this. A scum Alex wouldn't defend a scum MP, but a scum Alex would defend a town MP. It's kind of like in Paranormal 9, day 1, where I convinced Toon so completely of my towniness, that I had him defending me. I think this is what Alex has done to you, fooled you, and has manipulated you into defending him.

But there's an point in your rationale that bothers me MP:

On a more serious note, well no shit Sherlock, what were you expecting, us to roll over and bow to your will? I think Alexhans is town, so I defend him. He thinks I'm town, he defends me. ANYTHING ELSE WOULD BE SCUMMY, PERIOD.

Whil I was typing this, I just realized something. Imagine, for a second, Alexhans is scum and I'm town. Would he not of, you know, acted on his bet with ToonyMan? Not only would it kill off a townie (At the town's request, no less), but it also would have made him seem less scummy and put a major egg on ToonyMan's face as well as half the rest of the town. This just makes me all the more certain of Alexhans not being scum. Of course, it could be, say, a ToonyMan Alexhans scumteam, but if that's the case, I precongratulate you two on managing to be hard to detect... but also really stupid.

In the first two sentences, you say that if you think someone's town, you should defend him, period. If I may ask a question, should you still do this if you don't have solid evidence? Should you do this if you have to resort to broken/half-assed arguments? Should you do this even if it means potentially poisoning the town's momentum? You believe too completely in your reasoning, and you've never bothered to go "Well, I could be wrong..." and rethink your position. No, you just found an answer, and chose to stand by it no matter what, which brings me to my next point:

You see MP, the reason I think everyone's giving you a hard time is because you believe too strongly in absolutes and ideals. Where someone in a situation will always pursue the 'correct' choice for that person with no room for deviation, where logic is linear instead of branching, and people never make mistakes or doubt themselves. Alex made a large mistake, multiple actually, and like it or not, he's paying for it.

My thoughts on Alex have already been summed up most superbly by Dakarion.