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[Neonivek]

Ohhh interesting. Then instead of removing instability perhaps you should have some sort of shifting mechanic or end game.

Like Converting the CCS to Liberalism somehow.

[E. Albright]

Now that sleepers have other abilities, it occurs to me that we could actually remove their passive ability to alter the issues, with the exception of the News Anchor and Radio Personality sleepers, who could have a unique ability to steadily liberalize those issues at a rate of one point a month per sleeper, killing the Conservative media over time by destroying their message from the inside. To compensate, strengthening the currently "secondary" abilities of most sleepers is perhaps called for -- and maybe removing the ability of non-sleeperizing dates and interrogations to provide a map of the person's workplace, in order to make this a sleeper-only ability?

Looking at the source (sleeper_update.cpp; that is where all sleeper issue change occurs, isn't it?), it appears a lot of sleepers already don't affect the issues. Currently, as near as I can tell, all Cultural sleepers (in which Nuns aren't included?) do absolutely nothing to the issues, including affecting LCS popularity. No prominent sleepers affect LCS popularity, in fact - except the media types, if and only if Cable and AM Radio are unpopular. The only sleepers who will ever affect LCS popularity are non-Cultural, non-excessively-liberal sleepers who affect no other issues.

In light of the above, the switch statement starting at line 191 seems... odd. Are all of those breaks actually supposed to be breaks? Or are they supposed to be continues, with the solitary return for excessively liberal sleepers supposed to be a break? Basically, do we want all sleepers to hit the default statement and affect LCS popularity?

[Servant Corps]

What happened is that, in trying to remove Commissar from sleeper_update.ccp, Johnatan S. Fox must have accidentally removed the code that allowed for the Cultural Sleepers to affect the issues. Somebody has to go in and add that code back in.

And my view is that Cultural Sleepers affect all issues. Anchormen and Radio Personalities are prohibited from affecting all other issues but LCS Popularity once AM Radio/Cable News are unpopular. (Altough they get to affect LCS Popularity twice as effectively as they could before...)

Here's the code:

Code: [Select]

         for(int i=0;i<VIEWNUM-3;i++)
         {
            libpower[i]+=power/2;
         }


[E. Albright]

That's a fairly simple fix. Assuming my assumptions about all ("useful") sleepers working on LCS popularity and nuns properly being cultural sleepers are correct, the following should replace the switch statement on line 191, and any soul with commit access could pop it in:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

switch(cr.type)
   {
      /* Cultural leaders block - small influence on everything */
  /*Radio Personalities and News Anchors subvert Conservative news stations and convince people to watch
  Liberal news stations. But once people watch Liberal news, nobody will want to listen to the
  Radio Personalities and News Anchors anymore! They lose their ability to change Culture!*/
      case CREATURE_RADIOPERSONALITY:
if(attitude[VIEW_AMRADIO]<=50)
{
            change_public_opinion(VIEW_AMRADIO,1);
            for(int i=0;i<VIEWNUM-3;i++)
            {
               libpower[i]+=power/2;
            }
}
else
{
libpower[VIEW_LIBERALCRIMESQUAD]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_LIBERALCRIMESQUADPOS]+=power;
}
continue;
      case CREATURE_NEWSANCHOR:
  if(attitude[VIEW_CABLENEWS]<=50)
  {
             change_public_opinion(VIEW_CABLENEWS,1);
             for(int i=0;i<VIEWNUM-3;i++)
             {
                libpower[i]+=power/2;
             }
  }
  else
  {
libpower[VIEW_LIBERALCRIMESQUAD]+=power;
libpower[VIEW_LIBERALCRIMESQUADPOS]+=power;
  }
         continue;
/* Priests gain their cultural power through their ability to "creatively interpert" religion to promote
Liberal ideas, such as the seperation of church and state. But if the government strictly
enforce the seperation of church and state (L+), prohibiting faith-based views from affecting public policy,
then Priests would be unable to use their Religious preachings to change the Culture of society!*/
      case CREATURE_PRIEST:
      case CREATURE_NUN:
  /*if(law[LAW_RELIGION]<=1)
  {
libpower[VIEW_LIBERALCRIMESQUAD]+=power;
libpower[VIEW_LIBERALCRIMESQUADPOS]+=power;
  }
         continue;*/
/* All these other Cultural Sleepers are inherently good at affecting culture, in fact, they get to produce
Culture! Nothing can be done to strip them of their power. */
      case CREATURE_PAINTER:
      case CREATURE_SCULPTOR:
      case CREATURE_AUTHOR:
      case CREATURE_JOURNALIST:
      case CREATURE_PSYCHOLOGIST:
      case CREATURE_MUSICIAN:
      case CREATURE_CRITIC_ART:
      case CREATURE_CRITIC_MUSIC:
      case CREATURE_ACTOR:
         for(int i=0;i<VIEWNUM-3;i++)
     {
        libpower[i]+=power/2;
         }
         continue;
      /* Legal block - influences an array of social issues */
      case CREATURE_LAWYER:
      case CREATURE_JUDGE_CONSERVATIVE:
         libpower[VIEW_WOMEN]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_CIVILRIGHTS]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_GAY]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_DEATHPENALTY]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_FREESPEECH]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_JUSTICES]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_INTELLIGENCE]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_ANIMALRESEARCH]+=power;
         continue;
      /* Scientists block */
      case CREATURE_SCIENTIST_LABTECH:
      case CREATURE_SCIENTIST_EMINENT:
         libpower[VIEW_NUCLEARPOWER]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_ANIMALRESEARCH]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_GENETICS]+=power;
         continue;
      /* Corporate block */
      case CREATURE_CORPORATE_CEO:
      case CREATURE_CORPORATE_MANAGER:
         continue;
      /* Law enforcement block */
      case CREATURE_DEATHSQUAD:
      case CREATURE_SWAT:
      case CREATURE_COP:
      case CREATURE_GANGUNIT:
         libpower[VIEW_POLICEBEHAVIOR]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_DRUGS]+=power;
         continue;
      /* Prison block */
      case CREATURE_EDUCATOR:
         libpower[VIEW_DEATHPENALTY]+=power; // no break intended
      case CREATURE_PRISONGUARD:
      case CREATURE_PRISONER:
         libpower[VIEW_PRISONS]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_DRUGS]+=power;
         continue;
      /* Intelligence block */
      case CREATURE_AGENT:
         libpower[VIEW_INTELLIGENCE]+=power;
         continue;
      /* Military block */
      case CREATURE_SOLDIER:
      case CREATURE_VETERAN:
      case CREATURE_MERC:
         libpower[VIEW_MILITARY]+=power;
         continue;
      /* Sweatshop workers */
      case CREATURE_WORKER_SWEATSHOP:
         libpower[VIEW_IMMIGRATION]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_SWEATSHOPS]+=power;
         continue;
      /* No influence at all block - for people were liberal anyway, or have no way of doing any good */
      case CREATURE_WORKER_FACTORY_CHILD:
      case CREATURE_GENETIC:
      case CREATURE_GUARDDOG:
      case CREATURE_BUM:
      case CREATURE_CRACKHEAD:
      case CREATURE_TANK:
      case CREATURE_HIPPIE: // too liberal to be a proper sleeper
      case CREATURE_WORKER_FACTORY_UNION: // same
      case CREATURE_JUDGE_LIBERAL: // more again
      case CREATURE_POLITICALACTIVIST: // ??!?!? impressive getting an LCS Member sleeper, but no effect // EA: Teenagers can grow up into these too
      case CREATURE_MUTANT:
         break;
      /* Talk up LCS block -- includes everyone else */
      case CREATURE_FIREFIGHTER:
         if(law[LAW_FREESPEECH]==-2)
         {
            libpower[VIEW_FREESPEECH]+=power;
            continue;
         }
      default:
         libpower[VIEW_LIBERALCRIMESQUAD]+=power;
         libpower[VIEW_LIBERALCRIMESQUADPOS]+=power;
   }

I do find it odd that Liberal Judges have no affect whatever on the issues, while liberal Lawyers still do. I know it's a class thing, but it just seems odd.

[Servant Corps]

I see that the Priests and the Nuns are counted as Religious Sleepers. While Law_Religion was in the game, priests and nuns loses their Sleeper Power when Religious Laws are at least L. Since Law_Religion has been taken out of the game, we're going to need to reintroduce Priests and Nuns as Cultural Sleepers.

EDIT: Until then, Priests and Nuns currently have no effect.

[LordBucket]

Just as a note: Some of my sucess with the method described in the original post was with a slightly older version. I'm trying to do the same with v4.005a, and there seems to be an invisible wall when the country is around 75% liberal on the progress bar shown after disbanding. Even save-scumming and adding a couple dozen arch conservatives, educators, etc. doesn't seem to get me past that wall.

[Servant Corps]

Could you disband, wait until country goes to 75%, un-disband, get a Computer Programmer, and check the polls?

[LordBucket]

check the polls?

0% concerned about gun violence
0% would boycott companies that use sweatshops
6% thought industry should lower polution

Most everything else is 90-100%

Note that I have 11 corporate managers/CEO sleepers, 3 assorted people at the sweatshop, 5 at the chemical factory, 5 at the nuclear plant, and 2 at the genetics lab, including some lab techs, engineers and emminent scientists.

I can experiment with throwing more people at the sweatshops and factories, but I'm not sure what to do about the gun control issue.

[Alexhans]

I have a problem with no sleepers...

Disbanding means that you quit the activism.  That you quit making propaganda and pushing your liberal agenda...

Unless a really huge majority of the population is L+ or L  (and very responsable with their civility) to ensue that no one takes away their liberal rights how are we supposed to assume that everything will turn good for us?

If we have people placed in tactical places, faithful people, spreading the word without faltering then we can assume that we will achieve our objectives.

A cool option would be to use disband as a Temporal thing instead of final one... Disband unless something bad happens... like a new sprout of conservativeness pushed by a new CCS or something like that...

A fraud in the goverment by some crooks... whatever...

[Servant Corps]

Gun Control can be handled by getting some Lawyers and Conservative justices.

How many AM Radio Personalities and Cable News Anchors do you have?

EDIT: Oh no! The code doesn't allow for Corporate Managers and CEOes to affect any issue! They're useless as sleepers! A terrible oversight that MUST be fixed.

Get some Sweatshop Workers sleepers then, they'll affect the Sweatshop issue.

Also, no sleepers affect the pollution issue. You're going to have to get AM Radio Personalities and Cable News Anchormen in order to affect that Pollution issue...but since I'm assuming nobody watches AM Radio and Cable News, they're likely already useless.

[E. Albright]

Yeah, I tried this and got similar results. 75% is a brick wall. I had 5 CEOs, 5 Anchors, 5 Radio, 5 C+ Judges, 5 assorted cops, 5 Guards, 5 Agents, 5 assorted military types, 4 Scientists, 2 Lawyers, 2 Priests, and 12 random cons.

Once AM and Cable get despised, the current code allows for no Cultural sleepers whatever, so obscure issues will be neglected.

Is it even possible to get sleeper Sweatshop Workers in the current version? I only get the option to release them when I encounter them, so recruiting them as sleepers doesn't look doable.

[Servant Corps]

So sleepers are no longer game-winning strategies. What Johnathan S. Fox tried to do was instead accomplished by a bug.

I'm still shocked that LCS Popularity doesn't help to sway those neglected issues.

[E. Albright]

It actually seemed to a bit - I was hitting the wall at ~60% until I added 10 extra random conservatives (in the current code, "random conservatives" (okay, and media cons once AM and Cable are unpopular) are the only ones affecting LCS popularity)... I suppose I should try adding 20 or 30 more and see if that's enough to win with.

[e] Nope, 30 more non-specialist sleepers make no difference.

[Servant Corps]

Well, one reason why that adding more sleepers won't work is that, even though you accumulate much LiberalSleeperPower (which includes not only the power of your sleepers, but also your LCS Popularity), you can only sway any one issue by 1%/month. So, even though you got an army of random conservatives affecting LCS Popularity, LCS Popularity will only rise by 1%.

And even though you have high LCS popularity combined with sleepers specialized to that specific issue, you could only sway that issue by 1%.

The unpopularity of Conservative media (Cable News and AM Radio) should also sway an issue by 2%/month.

So, the best case is that you have 3%/month increase. The worst case is when only LCS Popularity is affecting a single obscure issue, and conservative power is just too great to overwhelm it.

[Leafsnail]

Ah.  That would explain why my sleeper army of tonnes wasn't enough to win.  They were all what I thought of as "Cultural sleepers".