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Author Topic: More efficient use of materials  (Read 1968 times)

Tamren

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More efficient use of materials
« on: June 11, 2007, 01:33:00 am »

Reading the whole thing at once is probably a bit of a stretch for you guys, so it would be better to just read and comment on one section at a time. If you have something to add go right ahead!

One thing that i noticed about the game is that there is a lot of material that simply goes missing in defiance of scientific laws.

A dwarf excavates a 4X4 room, half the squares produce a boulder. Where does the rest of the stone go?

When a dwarf cuts down a tree it becomes a single log piece that the dwarf can carry with no trouble when in reality the tree could easily be 50 feet long or more, where does the rest of it go? When that single log is used to make a chair there is nothing left even though you should end up with a pile of scraps and sawdust.

These situations do not make much sense, with a little extra effort we could put that wasted material to good use and more efficiently use and store materials of all types. Material types listed seperately along with new uses:

Stone:
When you want dwarves to mine out a section of rock the dwarves will carefully remove the stone in as big a piece as they can manage, this is used to extract ore and gem bearing rock as well. This has a 50% base success rate, the higher the skill of your best miners, the more likely you are to remove the square intact.

If your miners are successful you will end up with a more or less completetly intact boulder of stone. If not you will end up with a pile of chunky basketball sized rocks.

One factor that increases the chance of extracting the tile in one piece is how many sides of the tile are reachable. If you are trying to dig out a tile at the end of a narrow corridor, you will have a hard time getting it out intact. On the other hand, a single stone pillar standing in the open will be easy to extract.

From there the system works like this:
BOulder: the boulder is a large chunk of rock, some contain gems and metal ore. For easier storage, plain stone boulders can be carved into rough blocks, once shaped these can be stacked 3 to a square in a pyramid.

Boulders and rough blocks can be used for stone structures and furniture. For other applications they must be smoothed or broken up first.

Smoothed stone block:
With a little extra effort you can get your masons to turn a rough stone block into a smooth stone block. if this is used to make a structure it will be "smooth" instead of "rough".

Because they fit together so well you can store smoothed blocks in bins and stack them up to 3 levels high instead of 2.

Chunks: Stone chunks are large pieces of stone. If your miners fail to dig out a tile of rock in a single piece you end up with a pile of chunks instead of a single boulder, to move the chunks you will need cart or wheelbarrow of some sort. You can also order your miners to break up boulders into chunks if you need the stone in that form.

Chunks can be used for structures such as bridges but are not large enough to make furnature out of them. They can also be used to make crafts and ammo.

If a boulder or stone block is broken up, depending on the size of the item made there will be a few leftover chunks which can be used for other tasks.

Gravel:
Rock gravel is produced whenever a piece of stone is worked. Small amounts of gravel will simply clutter the ground where they were produced. This is usually not a problem. In some cases gravel can build up to the point where it impedes movement. If you want to smooth or tile a floor for example you need to gather all the gravel on the floor and take it away. In workshops that work with stone, gravel will build up and eventually clutter the work area. Gravel is stored in a bin but to collect it all you need is a bucket (shovels as well maybe?)

Rock gravel has a few uses so it is worth gathering it up and storing it. Valuable types are automatically set aside as limestone gravel for example can be used in the production of steel. Flint can be used to light fires.

Uses: Listed here are all the ideas i could think of for using stone in its new forms.
Walls:
Blocks of both types can be used to make walls. Walls are simply stone blocks stacked up in alternating order. These walls are not permanent unless you order the builders to mortar the blocks together. If just stacked into place it forms a handy fence that is impassable to most wildlife.

One block wide walls are easy to make, if you want to get more complicated you need the skills of an architect. Large fortified walls will require many stone blocks, wood bracing and possibly gravel and rock chunks to fill the inside of the wall. Later on you can get masons to carve arrow slits into the wall.

Fortified towers can be added to the walls if you wish, these can be topped with crennelations or an open platform fit for mounting a catapult or other sige engine.

Note that this is different from rewalling.

Dragons teeth:
Blocks of stone or boulders can be stacked in piles that form a loose alternating pattern. These small pyramids are used to slow enemy charges and repel large animals. These tank traps were used in world war two as an effective deterrent as a single tank would have to go around or spend much of its ammo blasting its way though. I imagine they would be of some use against elephants.

An alternate form that takes longer to build is small incline shaped piles with the slope heading away from your archers. Essentially a ramp that leads nowhere. It breaks up formations and slows down attackers much like the dragons teeth. The difference is that because of the shape they offer no cover to enemies attacking your fortress.

Because the stone is only stacked into place this is a handy form of storage that doubles as a defensive measure.

Roads:
Gravel can be used on roads, a proper non-concrete road such as the ones the romans built (are are in use to this day!) are constructed with layers of crushed rock and sand and topped with large paving stones. This provides the best surface. Drainage is not usually a problem unless you are playing on a wet map but stability is.

Gravel can also be used to upgrade a plain dirt road which improves the surface slightly and makes the road permanent.

Extracting minerals:
If a boulder or pile of chunks contains ore or gems it must be broken up before it is processed. For ore this means breaking up the boulder into chunks and trimming off all of the waste stone, the resulting pile is MUCH lighter and can be put into the furnace.

In the case of gems you will need a jewler to extract them. If the raw gems are still encased in a boulder a miner will go to the workshop and break it up before work resumes. The jewler will then carefully extract all the raw gems from the rock pieces leaving a pile of gravel and a small pile of gems. The amount of gems you get depends on the density of the gem vein, and the skill of both the jeweler and miner. Some gems invariably get broken or just turn up flawed, these can still be used for studding.

Ammunition and Crafts:
Ammo such as rock arrowheads and sling stones can be made out of any raw stone besides gravel. The same goes for crafts.
The more "intact" a piece of rock is, the more items it will yield.

Catapult ammo:
Single boulders can be smoothed and rounded in order to improve accuracy. Solid boulders will bounce on softish ground and can be recovered and used again. An alternate use is a boulder striated by your masons with cracks. What happens is the boulder shatters on the first impact and explodes into a cone of fragments affecting a wider area.

Rock chunks can be gathered up and used by a catapult, this requires a netted sling which your tailors can make for you. When fired the smaller rocks rain down on the area you aim at.

Gravel might not seem to be very useful for this, but gravel can be used as a counterweight if Toady decided to add trebuchets and other super-heavy siege engines.

If you make a large bag out of stiched leather or armour quality cloth you can fill it with gravel and fire it off liek a boulder. On a direct impact the bag will hit VERY hard. If the bag is starting to wear out it might break on impact, but will still do quite a bit of damage.

Because the bag is not a solid stone you can use it as practice ammo in a rocky setting where solid ammo would break on impact and you would not be able to use it again. Also, these bags will kill or knock out wildlife without mangling them giving the catapult some use in hunting.

Beaches and fields:
I doubt soil erosion is a problem but to deal with it you could pile rock chunks and gravel in the affected area to ward off the water.

As a defensive measure you can spread the gravel your fortress generates into a thick field. I dont know if any of you have tried running in thick gravel or sand but suffice to say it takes a lot of energy. In addition traction is hard to come by, a layer of gravel in front of your gate will make it harder for enemies to push the door in.

If you top the gravel with jagged chunks of stone the terrain changes from difficult to dangerous. Cavalry, horses in particular will have a hard time navigating such terrain and will get injured very easily. This also has a great impact on enemy infantry than a plain gravel field would.

The disadvantage of both is that the fields impede your own dwarves, but this is not a problem with careful planning.

Hmm thats about all i can think of for stone, anything to add?

Wood:
Right now when a tree is felled it yields one piece of wood. Instead felling a tree should give you an entire trees worth of wood. This would let us build a large stockpile without massive and ugly clearcutting operations.

Trees are a very valuable commodity, if you simply clearcut the entire area the air quality will grow steadily worse. In addition you will find that the amount of wildlife in the area will go down significantly.

Unfortunatly we do not have the patience to wait 50 years of game time to get an old growth forest and i doubt Toady has the patience to work out the specifics, at least not yet anyway. So lets say a tree in the DF universe takes 4-6 years or so to reach maturity and all wood species are effectively the same.

Once a tree is felled it yields a bunch of products. The raw log is useless in its current form and hard to move around without like... 20 dwarves carrying it at once. So the log is not taken anywhere it simply sits where it was felled.

From there a bunch of things happen. The lumberjacks trim off all of the branches and large limbs and set them aside. They then chop up the raw log into manageable section, these sections are then taken to a stockpile.

From the stockpile the logs go to the sawmill. The sawmill is run by your lumberjacks. The mill will not actually contain a saw until you make and add a giant saw blade.

At the mill the raw sections are debarked and the bark set aside. From there the log is split (or cut once you get a saw) into planks and some scrap wood. These planks are what you use to make wood products.

The uses:
Raw log: This is split up into sections once the tree is felled. In this form it is rather too large to use.
Raw Section: This is debarked and cut up into planks. It can also be left as-is, a few items such as balista bolts and catapults require complete log sections for constructions. Raw sections can be used to make roads and bridges although they will have a "rough" finish.
Wood planks: These planks are used to many any wood product. If used to make a bridge they will give it a smooth finish. Depending on the size of the object made it will consume a different amount of planks.
Wood bark: This bark is stripped off logs before they are cut into planks.
Wood branches: These are cut off a felled log.
Wood limbs: These are the large branches that are not suitable for making planks.
Scrap wood: The scraps left over after any building project.
Sawdust: The dust left whenever wood is cut.

The uses:
Fuel: Any kind of wood smaller than a section can be used as fuel. The furnace itself is dealt with later in the tools section.

Charcoal: Charcoal can be made out of any piece of wood bigger than branches. Sections will need an especially large furnace or they will not fit. The amount of wood you put into the furnace dictates how long the furnace burns for and how much charcoal you get.

Ash: Ash is made whenever you burn wood, most of it is not usable for glassmaking as it tends to get dirty, but a little is salvageable. To get large quantities of ash you simply burn wood.

Furniture: Furniture is mostly made out of planks. There are a few exceptions however. A log round is perfectly usable as a stool. In that case it would be reffered to as a "log chair" instead of a chair.

Crafts: Crafts like mugs and rings and the like can be made out of planks, limbs and scrap wood. This is a good way to use up excess wood that would normally just get burned.

Gardening/farming: I know bark mulch and wood chips can be used in farming but i dont know the specifics.

Seasoned wood: Seasoned wood produces higher quality. The problem is to season the wood you need to either, dry it in a kiln which uses fuel, or leave it out in the sun for a long time. Maps hot enough for sun-dried wood usually have few trees so a kiln is needed. Most kilns are pretty small so a large one would be needed to fit the logs inside.

Seasoned wood increases the quality of items produced with it, and the strength of its construction. This effect is amplified with some products. Instruments for example are mostly valued for the sound produced, not the material used. Barrels made with "green" or untreated timber has a tendency to contaminate water stored inside it.

Weaponry:
Most weapons requre a handle or haft made out of wood. Planks are mostly used for the long handles, scrap wood is suitable for making short hilts. For weapons with long shafts planks are split lengthwise to form a few of them.

To make bolt and arrow shafts you can use anything larger than scrap wood. The time it takes and the amount of bolts you get depends on the size of the piece used.

Siege weapons require full debarked sections of wood. The amount used varies greatly on the type of machine made and the strength of its construction. The stronger the machine, the more power you can put through it without it exploding on you.

Culinary:
Very few uses in this category. I do know that salmon is sometimes smoked with sawdust from specific trees. Salmon baked on a cedar plank gets mentioned every now and then.

Seeds: When you cut all the twigs and branches off a tree you can have your herbalists gather up any seeds so that you can plant new trees. Some seeds can be used as food such as pine nuts.

Nuts: In addition to seeds some trees produce nuts and these can be gathered by your herbalists. But i guess they would need a ladder or something to reach them.

Metal:
Once you have the extracted ore you need to smelt it. The amount of metal you get depends on the richness of the ore.

In order to accuratly represent the usage of metal we need different denominations.
Bar: A bar is about the size of a tissue box, quite a bit of metal. 4X4X8 inches
Ingot: an ingot is what you get if you cut the bar into 8 pieces. 2X2X4 inches
Half-Ingot: do i really need to explain this? :P
Quarter-Ingot: Ditto with above.
Blank: A metal blank is a very small square piece of metal, in essence a raw coin.

The only size of metal that HAS to be one complete item is the bar. In all other cases only the total quanity of the metal matters. If you had 9 half-ingots in a box it would show up as 4 ingots and 1 half ingot.

When you first smelt a pile of ore you will yield AT LEAST 1 bars worth of metal, depending on the richness of the ore you may get even more metal. The richest legendary ore veins will net you 2 bars per load, but for the most part you will get 1 bar a varying handful of ingots and a couple blanks.

Bars are not often used, the only point in having a hunk of metal that big is convenience for trading and very large mechanisms/architecture. By default you will cast the smelted metal into ingots and smaller pieces.

When smiths needs to use metal they start with the smallest pieces they can find and throw them into a pot to melt them together. Any excess is simply tossed into a mold and added back to the stockpile.

Make sense? Its a little extra work but now a dagger will not waste the majority of a whole metal bar.

Tools: This new system requires a few changes.

Stretcher: A stretcher allows 2 dwarves to carry a heavy object, or one with an inconvenient shape such as a pile of rocks.
Wheelbarrow: Requires a lot more effort to build but serves the same purpose as the stretcher and only requires one dwarf to operate it.

Wood Kiln: This is a very large construction designed to dry planks and logs. Despite its large size it does not use much fuel because the heat requirement is not constant. You simply heat up the kiln and let it sit, compared to the constant heating and reheating required to work metal.

Furnace: The size of your furnace determines how much material you can process at once. If you required large amounts of metal bars you could construct a very large furnace so you could fit many bars worth of ore into it at the same time.

Once the metal is fully purified in the furnace you can do a bunch of things with it. Cast the metal into bars or ship it over to the foundry to make more complicated cast metal items.

If you tell the furnace to make ingots it makes as many full ingots as it can with the metal stored. The remainder can be left in the furnace if you are smelting another batch of ore, or you can pour it out into smaller ingot molds.

Foundry: This is a seperate building from the furnace. A foundry is a workshop deticated to metal casting. When ore is refined the molten metal can be brought directly to the foundry and kept hot in a crucible. Alternatly you can bring raw metal and melt it in the crucible, it just takes extra fuel.

Sawmill: In the beginning this is just a large open raised platform that provides a large solid foundation to work with large pieces of wood.

Later on once your mechanics are skilled you can add a saw to the mill which speeds up production immensly, it also affects the quality of the finished planks.

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Mechanoid

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2007, 12:46:00 am »

TL;DR but it sounds good from what little i did read (the wood /metal parts)

Three things to add:
1. With more raw construction materials comes more clutter, and more data that needs to be managed where an item is and is not. Item stacking needs to come before this, otherwise you'll end up with sawdust piles everywhere... And considering they track like blood IRL, a pile of 100 will simply explode to cover 100 tiles of your fortress given enough time. Of course, being able to get other things from making a bed other then just a bed has it's uses in gameplay, as you outlined.
... Picking up sawdust /metal shavings and throwing it in the eyes of an enemy, like sand or dirt, for example, would be very useful in adventure mode. Fortress mode wrestlers could carry it as a 'bag of tricks' to offset them not having a weapon.

2. Some buildings and construction processes will need larger item requirement lists... Look at what happened to the well with the new Z-axis. From a block and a bucket, to: a block, bucket, rope, mechanism, and underlying water source. As well, the 'orders' menu would be expanded considerably (wood hauling would turn into "wood orders" which contained a hauling option and what to do with sawdust) and life could turn into a living hell if you dont have a manager with you.

3. Tools should be kept to a minimum under this large number of raw resources, otherwise the resources will become unworkable if you're missing even a single tool... This was the problem with Wurm Online; if you lost your [insert tool here], you couldn't [insert related job here] which meant that a large portion of the game was effectively "shut off" until you obtained your lost tool (or a replacement)
... A serrated disk for example can perform the same job as an axe or sword, as can a chunk of metal perform the job of a hammer or mace. Basically, there should always be a way from [here] to [there] (right now there's a disconnect in the current DF version 'tech tree' where if you lose your anvil before making a backup, you're screwed perminately)

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Locus

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2007, 03:12:00 am »

Dwarves already possess perfectly efficient construction methods. The tree they cut down for a bed is much larger than the one they cut down for mugs.   :)


Seriously though, I think the game would get a little bit nightmarish with all of that incorporated and having to be kept track of.

[ June 12, 2007: Message edited by: Locus ]

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TotalPigeon

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2007, 11:13:00 am »

I think that having all of that would make things very difficult to keep track of, but on the other hand they would add a lot to the game. The interface really needs some work before all these other sub-items of current items could show up though - perhaps some way of making the managers screen more informative? Say, an indication of how much of the raw material for making the item you pick that you have and also how many of that finished item too (constructed/allocated or spare)? Also, an indicator of how many are currently being made across the fortress - i.e. link the workshops and the managers screen in both directions (though that would have to be optional for each workshop). That could be cool.
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Dreamer

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2007, 01:27:00 pm »

The largest problem would be getting your fortress started.  Want to build a shop?  Sorry, gotta do this, this, this, this...

As it stands, most of the stuff you're talking about breaking into several mini-steps are already being done in a sense when the item is consumed for its purpose.  When a dwarf is building something with a stone, he breaks the stone up for the purpose that he has in mind for it.  When a dwarf makes a bed from a log, he preps the log and extracts the parts of the log that will be best at making the bed.

Adding all these steps would be more of a head-ache than a blessing.  I'd rather take one log per tree than have to go through several steps (Different ones for different purposes, no less) to get what I need.

But that's just me.

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4bh0r53n

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2007, 02:00:00 pm »

another thing which could be added under the tools section is the charcoal kiln:
requires no fuel, several trees worth of wood are put in then covered and burn slowly without much oxygen, leaving only carbon
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Tamren

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2007, 02:45:00 pm »

This system would have to come much later but it would tie in well with the "upgradeable" workshop idea i had earlier.

Sawdust would only be produced in significant amounts by a few places. Mostly the craftdwarves table, the carpenters workshop and the other work stations that use wood.

In a plain workshop the worker would simply sweep all of the sawdust to one corner of the shop with his foot and forget about it. In a fancier upgraded workshop he would gather up the sawdust and put it all into a barrel.

We need some units of measurement but im not sure what to use. A pile of sawdust could mean anything, maybe measure the amount in "buckets" of sawdust? Remember that this includes all the little chips one would make when carving. So lets say making a chair out of a couple planks would net you a half bucket full of sawdust. A job with a lot of carving/sanding like making mugs would net you a whole bucket.

Even though its measured using buckets you do not actually NEED a bucket unless you want to move the sawdust around. It would be a nightmare if every single pile had to be stored in a bucket -_- Especially on maps with very little wood, but then again if thats the case sawdust will be the least of your problems.

Its true that this will generate a crapton of jobs, and im not sure how to handle all of that. I mean for example under the new system just cutting down a tree would go like this:
1. tree gets chopped down, then chopped up
2. Branches and limbs removed on site, bark stripped off at the sawmill.
3. Sections cut into planks.

So now we went from a standing tree to a considerable pile of planks. The planks represent the "wood" that we have now. But we also gained a number of byproducts, namely:
1. The pile of branches and limbs still sitting back where we cut the tree down.
2. The big pile of bark carpeting the sawmill floor.
3. The scraps, trees are not square, there will always be some leftover once the planks are cut.
4. The sawdust made from cutting the planks.

This would generate a lot of hauling jobs and gum up the system, but it can still be managed:
1. That pile of branches and limbs is not going anywhere, it just becomes another resource point sitting out in the woods. If you want to leave it there, thats okay it just rots or dries out in the sun.

If you designate the pile with the gather plants command the herbalists will come around and check the pile for valuables, they could find anything from pine nuts to bird nests.

Since we can burn them as fuel it is a good idea to collect them. YOu designate the pile of branches the same way you would mark plants for harvesting. The workers show up and haul away the pile.

The branches end up in  bundles so the computer has only  a few items to track. The limbs are bigger and are essentially a raw unshaped plank and can be used as such. From there the branches can be tossed into a furnace, the limbs can be used to make rough furnature or used for fuel or charcoal.

2. The bark is sort of tricky to deal with, depending on the type of tree a single tree trunk could net you a massive pile of bark. The only thing we can do with it is use it for landsscaping or burn it.

So how about if taking the bark off is optional? You can still cut planks out of a tree trunk that has its bark on. That bark would then become a part of the leftover scrap wood and be forgotten about. Later on you would need to take the bark off because projects like catapult parts need a plain trunk.

A sawmill would be a big building like the siege workshop, so there would be a lot of empty space to shuffle the bark into. Again i suppose we could measure it in buckets.

The same goes for scraps and sawdust.

The best solution is to make all of this stuff optional. If you want, you CAN deal with the sawdust and bark chips and whatnot. But if you think it is too much trouble, you can use nothing but wood planks and throw out the remainder.

Any sawmill you build will probably be out in the forest, you could simply order the workers to toss the bark and sawdust into the sorounding woods, end of problem!

For indoor workshops if sawdust was considered refuse then workers would come and clean the workshop every now and then and dump the sawdust outside where it dissapears with the rest of the refuse.

This way you do not HAVE to deal with all these extras untill you have sufficent capacity and info to manage it all. But if you take the time you can secure many advantages such as extra fuel.

--

Sawdust as a distraction is a great idea, we could also use sand and dirt. A "dust" trap could be used to blind a whole group of enemies at once while your marksdwarves cut them down.

--

Personally i think tools should be kept to a minimum. A lumberjack could get by with nothing but an ax. That is not to say he wouldnt benefit from having an adamantine chainsaw.

Workers should start with very basic tools. A carpenter would have an ax and a hammer, lets just assume he is so leet that he has no need for nails. Later on you could replace the hammer and ax with better versions made with stronger materials.

You could also take the time to build specialized kits of tools. Chisels, files, drills and the like. These are NOT needed but they both speed up work and increase the quality of the finished piece.

These "frills" would be hard to keep track of, so lets say instead of having a pile of 4 chisels 2 drills and a file, you simply have a "carpenters toolbag" that counts as one item and has a single quality rating.

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Grek

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2007, 03:18:00 pm »

They should all follow the same pattern:

Mountain->Rocks->Stones->Gravel
Trees->Logs->Scraps->Sawdust
Ore->Bars->Scraps->Ingots
Raw Gem->Whole Gems->Small Gems->Dust

Dwarfs make the mountain into rocks. The rocks are made into furiture, leaving some small stones or directly into crafts. The stones are made into more crafts. Making crafts directly from the boulder makes more crafts than making them from stones would. All of this makes gravel.

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hactar1

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2007, 03:28:00 pm »

I kind of agree with you about the wood, but not the stone necessarily.  Changes should be motivated by wanting better gameplay, not trying to reproduce the laws of thermodynamics.  There is MORE than enough stone already, and it's hard enough (read: impractical) to clean out.  Maybe I can see 1:1 mining ratios being fun if carts and wheelbarrows and minecars were in, but not until then.  Gravel and sawdust could be interesting as a by-product of masonry and carpentry like fat and chunks in butchery.  I see most tasks as being abstractions of their literal interpretation... for example, there's a magic sawmill in the carpenter's shop that you just don't need to worry about.

Fully grown trees should yield maybe 10 logs; that's a reasonable amount.  Making charcoal is especially silly now; an entire tree makes one unit, and you need 5 trees in all to produce one bar of steel (without magma assistance).  The saplings that grow up along the river should maybe be harvestable for 1 log each if you're in a pinch, with intermediate values as the tree matures in 3 years or whatever.  Maybe beds or siege components should require 2 or 3 logs to build, once you get 10 logs to a tree.

I wouldn't think dragon's teeth would be effective against even elephants, but maybe sharp stone abatis -like fortifications or wooden Cheval de Frises would be welcome.  They'd really only be useful in-game if attackers would try to rush through them and be injured, rather than just run around, since statues already serve this purpose.

It will be interesting to see how many of these changes might prove necessary once people can make non-mountain forts, like elf villages or human castles.  Getting ~50% yield on stone quarries might be annoying when you need to build all your walls out of quarried stone.

[ June 12, 2007: Message edited by: hactar1 ]

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Darwithe

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2007, 04:26:00 pm »

Way, Way too much added to the process.

Meh, was going to do a detailed response but instead I'll just point out three things.

1st: I'm pretty sure some of your ideas would require Toady to completely recode various parts of the industry. Not necessarily a bad thing, just that it is probably a very very long way in the future.

2nd: These changes would generate a enormous increase in hauling jobs, not just because of byproducts. Until multiple items can be moved at once and restacking is in, I doubt anyone would actually enjoy playing with these options.

3rd: I like most of your wood/metal ideas but stone is already way to plentiful, I typically have around 5000 raw stone by the second winter if I don't actively work at getting rid of it. I do like most of what you have for additional uses for stone though.

Lol, went away from the computer for awhile and come back to finish this post and find hactar has already said what I did, and in more detail.

[ June 12, 2007: Message edited by: Darwithe ]

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Tamren

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2007, 05:45:00 pm »

Lol i just realized how bad my spelling is. The problem is for some odd reason i am never very creative unless i am also drop dead tired at the time -_-

Not to mention i have a cold and im sneezing about every 8th letter.

Anyhow

Stone should really have a higher yield. It sounds like a bad idea at first because it seems that you would drown in stone that you have no use for.

But remember that once you turn the boulders into blocks you can store them in a very compact area. Rough blocks pack 3 to a tile. Smoothed blocks take more effort but it is good xp for your masons and you can fit 5 of them to a single square.

Dragons teeth might not be very useful now but in the future they would be highly versatile.

Even if they just slowed enemies down that would be plenty reason to use them. Imagine your dwarves being chased by an elephant, if the elephants get caught up for a few seconds while your dwarf escapes then they have worked perfectly.

So far we dont have outdoor traps, but dragons teeth could be used to funnel enemies into killing zones, such as a narrow route in front of your balista.

Speaking of siege engines, large machines would not fit through the teeth until the enemy dismantles them, gives you plent of time to return fire before the enemy siege engines are functional.

The main reason i thought of this is that mountains are going to be a lot different when the next version rolls around.

Like you said raw stone will be in high demand, especially in the building of castles and such. Even if you plan to live in the mountain getting lots of stone means digging out a big space. Depending on the shape of the mountain this may not be feasible.

COmpare that to the gigantic mountain face we have now and you can see that stone will become much more valuable, not to mention diverse.

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2007, 06:12:00 pm »

Tamren, all my arguments against would be in the vein of hauling tasks, etc. Things that have been stated. Assuming those were adressed, I'd be for all these ideas. However, the idea of stacking these boulder\blocks goes against the scientific laws that are the foundation of your post. If we consider a boulder to be the tile of rock extracted in it's near whole, I don't see how, even if the edges are cut\smoothed, 5 would fit into one tile.

Note, this doesn't really bother me. I don't think the system now adheres to science any moreso than yours, and I don't care too much whether DF follows the rules of our reality unless something is terribly out of place.

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Tamren

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2007, 06:31:00 pm »

Of course, the problem is no one has ever defined exactly how big these things are.

From what toady said a single square can hold pretty much an unlimited amount of creatures are long as only one of them is standing up.

Well how much stone is that?    :confused:  Obviously the boulder recovered is dwarf portable so it becomes even more confusing from there.

The vision i had in my head went something like this:
1. Dwarf knocks out a more or less round boulder as big as him. To do this he has to chip away at the top and bottom of the boulder until he can get it out in one piece.
2. To make this into a "rough block" the mason chisels away most of the top and bottom, leaving a rectangular block with rounded edges.
3. TO make this into a smoothed block even more rock has to be removed.

So a "block" is significantly smaller than the area of rock that it came from and i could easily imagine stacking a few in the same square, especially if said stack was outside.

There is only so much you can do with a pick so i imagine most of the stone would get broken up into chunks before you recover something you could call a boulder.

What about quarry style excavations? they are much different, you break off blocks in a squared shape by drilling a line of holes in the rock and hammering these expanding spike things into them, i forgot what they call them.

Another method i read about is using wooden pegs the same way and soaking them with water which makes the pegs expand.

The pressure builds up to the point where the rock simply cracks along that planned weak point and you end up with a squared block of stone.

[ June 12, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2007, 06:34:00 pm »

Yeah, I'd be all for concrete (no pun intended) dimensions. But I don't blame Toady for not wanting to deal with the enormous headache that would probably be.

(Maybe I'll cut myself and send him my prescribed pain-killers when\if he attempts it. j\k)

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Tamren

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Re: More efficient use of materials
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2007, 08:41:00 pm »

I remember we had a thread awile back about recycling old wood furniture.

Well that would fit well, each item would just become a pile of wood scrap and be dealt with as such.

What about recycling metal items? a 1/3 recovery rate is ridiculous!

Granted some metal is lost every time metal is heated and forged and some is lost due to impurities but even then the recovery rate should be 3/4 or so of the ingots used.

Perhaps the amount you successfully recycle could be dependant on the quality of your furnace, but that would require the whole upgradeable workshop thing.

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