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Author Topic: The Big Bang...  (Read 2141 times)

Armok

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2009, 02:21:44 pm »

Passing the test isn't so much a problem, I guess... I just really would like to understand it as completely as I can.

I've studied a lot of physics and astrophysics, both on my own and in class, and it doesn't all seem to fit together. Burn me for heresy, but it intuitively seems to me that if there was no time (i.e. nothing was changing) the "universe" would be in a state of equilibrium. Therefore, some external force would have to be present in order for the state of "matter" to change, and therefore "start" the flow of time? Am I making sense here?

If the universe was packed into an "infinitely" dense space, its own gravitational pull would be enormous, of course. Wouldn't you need an equally infinite force to disrupt this equilibrium? Or would force not even exist, because time did not exist, and force has a time component?

I'm not trying to be anal about all these technicalities, I just really want to understand as fully as I can. Astrophysics has been a personal fascination to me for quite a while, and the Big Bang is a hurdle that is rather difficult for me to clear.
Did you read the links I gave you? I didn't check them carefully, but I would be surprised if they didn't answer this.
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Jreengus

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2009, 02:47:15 pm »

The big bang is a fairly simple phenomena.  It's what happened last night between me and your mom.
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Frelock

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2009, 02:49:27 pm »

Burn me for heresy, but it intuitively seems to me that if there was no time (i.e. nothing was changing) the "universe" would be in a state of equilibrium. Therefore, some external force would have to be present in order for the state of "matter" to change, and therefore "start" the flow of time? Am I making sense here?

If the universe was packed into an "infinitely" dense space, its own gravitational pull would be enormous, of course. Wouldn't you need an equally infinite force to disrupt this equilibrium? Or would force not even exist, because time did not exist, and force has a time component?

Ok, to start this off, I don't have that much knowledge on the subject, so part of what I'm saying is just my own speculation.  That said, lets consider your first point.  Is a universe without time really in "equilibrium."  I'm personally inclined to say no.  Why, you ask?  Equilibrium mandates that something must cause it to change.  However, without time, there can be no "cause and effect" as we know it.  Cause implies something which happened before, and as a result of that cause happening, the effect happens at a later point in time.  If there is no time, therefore, there can be no cause and effect; so, it's impossible for the start of time to have a cause as we understand the term.

It's also entirely possible that the start of the universe was a random event, such as quantum events.  We know that there is NO CAUSE whatsoever for a quantum event.  Therefore, when the entirety of the universe was squished together to within a quantum distance, it seems entirely possible for that universe to begin expanding at random, without any cause.

Now, as to your next question, you're entirely right that "before" the big bang, there was no time, and therefore no force.  However, let's consider the moment right after things started existing.  You are entirely right that the gravitational force would be nearly infinite.  However, you also have to understand that stuff really doesn't like being squished that close together.  You end up getting particles in the same quantum state, which can't actually happen in the universe that we know today, save theoretically in black holes.  If, therefore, you cram the entire universe into that small of a space, there's going to be a force (I can't remember if it's the strong or weak nuclear force) which would push back against gravity with as much if not more force.  Hence space can start expanding.

There's also the matter of dark energy which drives the expansion of the universe, but as I said before, it's only theoretical.  A bunch of scientists said that "well, we don't know what's causing this within the known rules of physics, and the only way it can be explained within those rules is some energy we can't detect in any other way."  Don't get me wrong, that's the same argument scientists used to find Neptune when Uranus's orbit didn't fit with the theory of gravity, so I do think it highly likely that dark energy exists.  It's just that, by definition, we can't really know anything about it, save that it helps the universe expand.

Pre-edit: And yes, Armok's links do have helpful information.  For example, the Planck epoch is the first moment of time, where these things would have happened.  What I didn't know before that I discovered reading the article is that it's entirely possible that all the forces in the universe were probably unified at that time.  This would instantly cover the problem of gravity, though the differentiation occurred in the planck epoc, so I'm not too sure myself.
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bjlong

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2009, 03:01:02 pm »

Understanding the big bang is very non-trivial, especially since our equations start getting wonky when we go back far enough--mass equaling time, for instance, and other absurdities*. In addition, the rate at which space has expanded is rather arbitrary at this point (IIRC)--we picked the function so that the data makes some sense, and everything lines up, but why does it look the way it does? Noone knows.

The best thing to keep in mind when thinking about all of this is the evidence for the big bang--esp. the background radiation evidence. We can definitely say from that, the universe was hot and dense, and then we all had to climb out of the gravitational field.

*When I say absurdities, I don't mean that mass can't be time--the units can be made to work out this way, but it's tough. What I mean is that the equations start making no physical sense, and, since we can't replicate the big bang for obvious reasons, we can't tell if they're right or wrong here.
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Mephisto

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2009, 06:16:48 pm »

Where did the notions that time didn't exist before the big bang and the universe is similar to a box come from?

Is it really all that wonky to believe that space is just an infinite, empty void and the universe is expanding in it? Is it equally wonky to believe that time didn't just "come into existance" during the big bang?
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Muz

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2009, 04:57:14 pm »

Heh, asking about the big bang isn't really a good idea on an Internet forum, especially not a DF one. Theoretical physics is a bit like sci-fi, which is a bit like magic. You're just taking existing theories and pasting them together to make sense out of it :P Not that it isn't true, just that everyone here is greatly interested in it, but few actually know as much as say, a random classmate of yours. And a few people would make stuff up and you wouldn't be able to tell either way, lol.

Anyway, the way I see it, it's basically that some people saw that the rate the universe was 'expanding' in a way that indicates everything came from a position. They just model it backwards through time, and find that it all originated from one location.

You can't really worry too much about technicalities here. Astrophysics is probably one of the most mathematically and physically complicated subjects ever.. trying to figure out something back to when time was created is difficult, only possible by mapping the effects and making some educated guesses.

Newtonian physics doesn't work at such a low level, heck, many of the theories you've learned in school - Ohm's law, real numbers, low frequency components, constants - fall apart later on, as they make a lot of assumptions and conditions which are assumed to be always true. But hell, when you've got things before the invention of time, with some near infinite masses, you're not making standard assumptions :P So just go with what you have, the true answers will probably be even more difficult to comprehend.
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Lord Dakoth

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2009, 10:52:45 pm »

Did you read the links I gave you? I didn't check them carefully, but I would be surprised if they didn't answer this.

I didn't check them carefully either, just scanned over them. I just tend to lean away from Wikipedia ever since I did research on gravitational anomalies. I never really got much done, just followed never ending trails of lingo... I'm sure there are some answers in there, but I'm not exactly feeling up to the daunting task of wading through pages and pages of technical terms and quantum physics. "Big Bang for Dummies" would probably be more up my alley.

Astrophysics is probably one of the most mathematically and physically complicated subjects ever...

Which of course, makes it one of the most enthralling subjects ever. Problems just make me want to know more.

The big bang is a fairly simple phenomena.  It's what happened last night between me and your mom.

My mother died giving birth to me. Thanks for bringing up such a painful subject.
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Puzzlemaker

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2009, 12:01:38 am »

Ha, you almost got me there for a second.

And yay, I got sigged.  That's the second time on this forum.  Go team me!
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Neruz

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2009, 01:06:32 am »

Have you read the book 'Imagining the Tenth Dimension'? If not, go do it. Understanding how dimensions work is vital for advanced astrophysics. Keep in mind that the book describes only one way to imagine the dimensions, it may not necessarily be the right one, but it should get you into the right mindset to start contemplating how things can happen when time doesn't exist.

Lord Dakoth

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2009, 04:24:13 pm »

Maybe I will... but I have a crapload of books that I'm reading right now. I'll make a note of it.
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Daywalkah

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2009, 07:30:10 pm »

The Big Bang was when Chuck Norris round house kicked god across the face. Tell your professor that!
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Lord Dakoth

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2009, 09:37:40 pm »

Yeah I will... after he gives me a term grade.  :P
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Jude

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Re: The Big Bang...
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2009, 10:47:53 pm »

The idea that nothing ever happened "before" the big bang because there was no time "before" it...or, it created time...see, I was gonna say "the whole idea is a mindfuck" but even trying to ARTICULATE the idea leaves me garbled.

I'll leave that stuff for other people. I like other sciences better...ones that are in the realm the human brain can fathom.
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