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[Axehilt_VuP]

Unlocks are a dumb idea.  Players should be rewarded for doing interesting things or for playing well, not for doing something stupid like spending 100 hours or making 10 forts - because those are inevitably UN-interesting things.

[qwertyuiopas]

A certain kind of "unlockable" could be technology.
Certain things could be "locked" at the start of the world to certain civilizations(such as steel forging to humans) but could be unlocked randomly during world gen, or during a game(adventurer steals dwarf techniques).
This wold be more "realistic" and may even make the game more interesting.

What definition of unlockables would make Dwarf Fortres most fun?
Thats what you should argue(and kill each other) about.

[Mechanoid]

This thread makes me die a little inside each time someone posts, because people fail to see the fundamental difference between tech'ing and unlocks.  

[ July 23, 2007: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]

[qwertyuiopas]

"unlockable" is not unlockable

[dreiche2]

I think Mechanoid has a point here, though personally I'd say it like this:

What is usually meant with 'unlockable' in the context of games is certain content that (all three of them)

a) is made available to the player after she/he achieved certain goals (though not necessarily a certain amount of time played).
b) is then made available in the game at "an earlier point in time" where it wasn't available before.
c) has usually some sort of "bonus" character, in particularly it is not necessary to "win" the game.

b) could mean that the content is available when starting a new game, right from the beginning.

So in the case of dwarf fortress, getting new options with nobles arriving is simply normal game advancement. An example for unlockable content would be a new race you can play after you too-deeped your first fortress (or whatever).

That's my 2 cents. So the question should now be IMO, if we want something like that. My gut feeling would be that is somehow doesn't fit the overall game theme, but I can't really point out why...

[qwertyuiopas]

Like certain worldgen events that happen randomly after being unlocked?
You would still not know if you get it, because it's random, but it will not come until you accomplish a simple goal. Like survive 3 years in fortress mode, or complete 2 adventure mode quests in one game.
A menu where you can enable/disable them, although this only affects world generation, where it still wont randomly happen(until you accomplish a big goal, allowing you to set to "always on").
Or, have all of them happen randomly anyway, but just unlock "cheats" like always having a certain event happen.

Or just make an unlockable "boss key" menu choice  

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by qwertyuiopas:
<STRONG>Like certain worldgen events that happen randomly after being unlocked? [etcetera]</STRONG>

No.

[Tallim]

One question....

Why?

You have in DF a remarkably entertaining and complex fantasy world simulation. What possible reason could you want for unlockables?

Especially given that it is free?

In my opinion most unlockable content is there to give you a bit more added value for money, a *reason* to play it again. That just doesn't stand right with DF. The reason to play again is to just play some more.

[Bien]

Well it seems that nopretentious got what he was wishing for, the reach the maga flow to UNLOCK/enable magma buildings part.

[Ravendas]

What Bien said above me. Unlock the magma forge upgrade by reaching the magma flow! Unlock sweet new nobles by constructing 50+ of a certain kind of weapon, and having a bunch of dwarves trained in its use! Unlock the noble of death by sucking really bad!

This is 'unlockable' content in that you need X to get Y, but the X definitely makes sense to get Y. I don't want things that don't make any sense in this. If anything is added, it should be added in a manner that makes sense in the world. Dig deep enough and develop a good relation with Dark Dwarves and gain the ability to play as them would make sense (if they existed). Things like that I could tolerate.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Personally, I play DF as a non-competitive game and love it because of that (I love SimCity but always go broke). In Strategy games in general, more than the scenarios, I like the sandbox modes because you don't have the quota hunting.

In that respect, I agree with the other people who pointed out that the concept would be a bit odd. While the dark dwarf example may make sense, in general, there is no real score system or anything that could be used to trigger the reward. And in addition, such unlockables are more something for games that feel like video games in the old fashioned sense of the word. You know, some ego-shooters or other action games. I think they go extremely against the flavor of DF.

However, a little bit of randomness in the tech-tree/noble development may add a little fun to the game. Currently, once you have 20 dwarves, you always will get the sheriff and the manager. Once you have a certain amount of coins, you get the bookkeeper, and so on and so on. It would be nice if there was a bit more variation, like, for instance, when you begin a new fortress/reclaim a fortress, the computer secretly determines the threshold for the Sheriff as 15 + 2d6 dwarves and for the manager as 12 + 2d6 dwarves. Or maybe there could be nobles that may or may not appear at all in a fortress (or nobles that are excluding other nobles).

Okay, I have to admit that I am a bit of a fan of unpredictability (that is why I have more fun playing and losing in SimCity than with CityLife - I am always curious what buildings the Sims will build next) and the individualized dwarves with their preferences engraved and random artifacts have so many complex layers that they always surprise me.

Deathworks

[Devastator]

quote:Originally posted by Deathworks:
I agree with the other people who pointed out that the concept would be a bit odd. While the dark dwarf example may make sense, in general, there is no real score system or anything that could be used to trigger the reward. And in addition, such unlockables are more something for games that feel like video games in the old fashioned sense of the word. You know, some ego-shooters or other action games. I think they go extremely against the flavor of DF.

Hear Hear.  Except you mean "New fashioned sense".  I don't remember too many first-person shooters in the eighties.  I do remember some top-down dungeon exploration games.

 

quote:
However, a little bit of randomness in the tech-tree/noble development may add a little fun to the game. Currently, once you have 20 dwarves, you always will get the sheriff and the manager. Once you have a certain amount of coins, you get the bookkeeper, and so on and so on. It would be nice if there was a bit more variation, like, for instance, when you begin a new fortress/reclaim a fortress, the computer secretly determines the threshold for the Sheriff as 15 + 2d6 dwarves and for the manager as 12 + 2d6 dwarves. Or maybe there could be nobles that may or may not appear at all in a fortress (or nobles that are excluding other nobles).

I don't know about this.. but I don't have any real objections to the idea.

[ July 31, 2007: Message edited by: Devastator ]

[Axehilt_VuP]

Randomness in the tech tree is a bad idea.  Everything should be clearly defined (and probably defined in-game so you know wtf is happening.)

Randomness should come as a result of events (which can include things like your dwarves doing bizarre things like Strange Moods.) Adapting to different events each game will keep the game fresh, whereas having a random tech tree (in a game which is already very poor at telling the player about that tech tree) is a bad idea.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Okay, maybe having nobles miss would be tough. But I think that slightly variable thresholds would be nice. Unless they are die-hard communists, the dwarven authorities probably have a little leeway. You may have one dwarf in charge who says - "oh, they already have 17 dwarves, they better get a Sheriff to keep in them in order before problems start" while another may say - "17 dwarves? They will be alright. I guess we can send a Sheriff when they hit 20 or something."

Currently, at least if the Wiki is correct, I find this system too mechanical: mint 5 stacks of coins and get a free bookkeeper! That feels very much like a video game and not a life simulation.

That is why I think it would be a good idea to have slightly mobile thresholds.

Having nobles miss in certain civilizations might actually work if you could get some hints in the civilization info, like "they never found out what was so cool about spears and decided to stay away from them in favor of axes" giving a clear hint that you will never get a spear noble. (Okay, not very subtle, but I think you get my point).

Deathworks