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[Neruz]

That doesn't seem right, +2 to all stats shouldn't have that much impact (remember it's based on a random 1 - 10).

[JanusTwoface]

Yes, but most of the time, the damage will center around the Cabal Mage dealing 2 damage a round to the Tower Mage and the Tower Mage dealing -2 (thus nothing) to the Cabal Mage.  There is some variation, but it would take a while to overcome that.

Now, if the Tower Mage chooses the correct element (2.0x) and the Cabal Mage chooses a neutral element (1.0x), the Cabal win chance is only 77%.  If the Cabal Mage choose the worst element (0.5x), then the chance is actually just slightly weighted towards the Cabal Mage (roughly 52/48).

Note: These still all pend on my python script which is based more or less directly on the perl version that Meph uses.

[Mephansteras]

Your script is probably roughly correct. However, you have to keep in mind that this is still a mafia game at heart. The idea is that the tower is supposed to vote cabal into the ring and then add assists (which can easily tip things in even a normal Wizard's favor).

The Cabal is supposed to win in an even fight. Just like in a mafia game, if you get down to 1 town and 1 scum the scum should win. The only difference here is that it's not automatic and the town has a slim chance of winning (or great chance, if its tower archmage vs a non-combat Cabal).

[JanusTwoface]

I'm not complaining (at this point) because it gives me personally a significant advantage this time around.

And I really haven't simulated much in the way of assists.  Since a single assist with the associated element will match a cabal mage, it does even out slightly.  The Archmages are still rather powerful.  Since the game ended out as even as it did, I think we might be fine with minimal tweaking.  We'll see.

Also, question for the simulation: Every mage starts with no healing and only gains healing either through assists.  Is this correct?

[dakarian]

I think I get it and I think I see an issue: if the town isn't lockstep bandwagoning the Cabal gets a heavy advantage.

In normal mafia, if the town is slightly in favor of one but with some division (i.e. 3 votes for one, 2 votes for another) and the the 'slightly in favor' is mafia, then the town gains via a mafia lynch.

If the Tower and Cabal are in the duel and the town is slightly against the Cabal then, it seems, the Cabal wins (ignoring randomness).  The town CANNOT be divided if they hope to stop the Cabal. If the Cabal is an Arch, then this is taken to the extreme. 

Note that towns tend to bandwagon anti-town TOWNIES, at least early on.  Note that the Tower needed two rounds to discover that web was too powerful and by then it was just about too late.


Consideration: If there's one cabalist outside the duel and the town isn't bandwagoning a cabal in the duel then it means the cabalists get 2 kills (A tower in the duel and an 'accident' outside).   Seems pretty powerful for Cabal, especially since it's harder to kill a cabal than it is to kill a mafia.

[Neruz]

I'd say thats a good thing; far too many mafia games devolve into a random clusterfuck and the mafia are only found out through sheer luck or accidents on their part. Having it like this forces the town to band together, which is good since it adds more fun with the mafia trying to infiltrate the town bandwagons and soforth.

[dakarian]

In truth, that's more because of the flippy nature of mass power roles and the lack of ability in our day game.

As far as bandwagons, though, that actually makes it easier for the mafia since it's VERY easy for them to manipulate bandwagons.  That's why many players, like myself, get into a habit of disrupting bandwagons or aiming for those not targetted for the bandwagon, since you tend to end up with a disrupted mafia. 

Thinking a bit more, it might be best for the Tower to NOT bandwagon early on since that will cover over the Cabal advantage.  Instead, it makes more sense for the Tower to keep the assists even unless they 100% KNOW who is Cabal.  Then they can aim for the overwhelming victor.

Of course, that turns the Archmage into a type of Kook

So I guess, in the end, it may not be as bad as it first seems, especially once the town starts picking up a good anti-cabal strategy. 

[Mephansteras]

Yeah. I think we'll keep it the same for next time, plus the Archivist and Alchemist roles. Then, if we start to see major issues, we can adjust from there. But this round turned out even enough that I'm happy with the set up for the moment.

@Janus, yes Healing can only be gotten through assists.

And Assists are very powerful when you assist someone using their Affinity. So, say you assist a Mage with Earth Affinity using an Earth Defense Boost. That's a +4 to his defense. If it's a Battle Mage doing the assist, it's a +6. That can really make a difference.

We didn't have a Justicar this round, but that's a role that should actually be more powerful then a normal cop. Once he knows that someone is Tower, he can work with them and share Affinities so that the two can effectively help one another in the ring.

[Mephansteras]

Had a thought about the Dark element for Cabal. I think I will allow a Cabal Wizard who has the Dark Affinity to attack with Dark energy as well. They can mask it as whatever element they want, but being Dark it means that never has a chance of matching a tower wizard's affinity. Also, a Dark wizard with the Dark affinity can Assist using Dark energy (masked, of course), which grants a +1 to any type of assist.

Does that make taking the Dark Energy more appealing? It boosts the power a bit, but the downside remains that you are easier to discover.

Also, I think the Subtle Mage will get to PM me a different Assist then the one they post publicly, rather then having them not post anything at all. Makes them less obvious that way.

[Neruz]

Had a thought about the Dark element for Cabal. I think I will allow a Cabal Wizard who has the Dark Affinity to attack with Dark energy as well. They can mask it as whatever element they want, but being Dark it means that never has a chance of matching a tower wizard's affinity. Also, a Dark wizard with the Dark affinity can Assist using Dark energy (masked, of course), which grants a +1 to any type of assist.

Does that make taking the Dark Energy more appealing? It boosts the power a bit, but the downside remains that you are easier to discover.

Also, I think the Subtle Mage will get to PM me a different Assist then the one they post publicly, rather then having them not post anything at all. Makes them less obvious that way.

Makes it a bit better, but still very risky. And risk is usually anathema to Cabal.

[webadict]

The Dark Element was tempting, but it just wasn't worth it for me. Because I'm webadict. Everyone else should've taken it. It's better to never have them get critical hits on you than to gamble on having half damage. Also, no one ever chose Air. And I don't think anyone fought with Earth. I was set.

I think Healing is a bit overpowered for what it is. It means they regenerate that much health back from the damage, as opposed to defense, which is random still. Therefore, healing never has to roll.

And the attacking thing might be fine, but have a chance for it to be discovered. Like 10% or something, or else it's the best to take. That way, it's a gamble. Who doesn't love those?

[Mephansteras]

Hmm...might be interesting. Or perhaps if you use it against a Justicar it is revealed to everyone? That could be fun.

As for Healing vs Defense, it sounds like I need to explain the difference a bit clearer.

In combat, there is an Attack roll and a defense roll. The base damage dealt is Attack - Defense (minimum of 0).
After the base is determined you account for Affinity. Double for cross affinity and half for the same. Once that is done, we subtract Healing and you take whatever damage is left over. Whether defense or healing is better depends on what happened with the affinities.

Example:

Total 14 attack, 10 defense, and 2 healing.

If the Attack is Earth and Affinity is Water, you get 14-10 = 4, X1=4, -2 = 2 points of damage. If he'd had two more points of defense instead of healing, this would be 14-12=2, X1=2 -0 = 2 points of damage. Defense and Healing are equivalent for neutral attacks.

If the Attack is Fire and Affinity is Water, you get 14-10=4, x2=8 -2 = 6. If he'd had two more points of defense instead of healing, this would be 14-12=2, X2=4 -0 = 4 points of damage. Defense is better for cross-affinity hits

If the Attack is Water and Affinity is Water, you get 14-10=4, x.5=2 -2 = 0. If he'd had two more points of defense instead of healing, this would be 14-12=2, X.5=1 -0 = 1 point of damage. Defense is worse for same-affinity hits.

Make more sense now?

[webadict]

Hmm...might be interesting. Or perhaps if you use it against a Justicar it is revealed to everyone? That could be fun.

As for Healing vs Defense, it sounds like I need to explain the difference a bit clearer.

In combat, there is an Attack roll and a defense roll. The base damage dealt is Attack - Defense (minimum of 0).
After the base is determined you account for Affinity. Double for cross affinity and half for the same. Once that is done, we subtract Healing and you take whatever damage is left over. Whether defense or healing is better depends on what happened with the affinities.

Example:

Total 14 attack, 10 defense, and 2 healing.

If the Attack is Earth and Affinity is Water, you get 14-10 = 4, X1=4, -2 = 2 points of damage. If he'd had two more points of defense instead of healing, this would be 14-12=2, X1=2 -0 = 2 points of damage. Defense and Healing are equivalent for neutral attacks.

If the Attack is Fire and Affinity is Water, you get 14-10=4, x2=8 -2 = 6. If he'd had two more points of defense instead of healing, this would be 14-12=2, X2=4 -0 = 4 points of damage. Defense is better for cross-affinity hits

If the Attack is Water and Affinity is Water, you get 14-10=4, x.5=2 -2 = 0. If he'd had two more points of defense instead of healing, this would be 14-12=2, X.5=1 -0 = 1 point of damage. Defense is worse for same-affinity hits.

Make more sense now?

But, in this example, Defense is the way to go, unless you know their Affinity, because then you'd at least get some damage reduction no matter which way it goes.

I'm just saying they basically do the same job. I think it'd be better with another attribute or something.

And perhaps Speed could determine HOW many times they can attack each turn. Like, they have to count to 10 each time they attack, and the remainder goes to the next attack.

[Neruz]

Yeah, there's a bit of overlap between defence and healing.

Why does healing reduce damage? Why not have it restore damage somehow, say you roll a d10 + (healing-10), divide the result by X and the Wizard heals that much damage. Perhaps only let them heal damage if they didn't take damage in the last 'turn' (or 10 turns, or whatever.)

[Mephansteras]

Hmmm. Another option would be to have it give a boost to the starting Health of the Wizard instead of damage reduction. I'll have to play with the numbers, but that will give a trade-off between how much damage is taken on a hit and how much can be taken total. Perhaps +2 to health for each point.