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[Granite26]

Ok... There's a lot of old traveller shows, even a few new ones.  Main character is exploring an interesting world, and every episode, somehow manages to find himself embroiled in a situation that just HAPPENS to require (A: Kung Fu, B: Hulking Out, or C: Quantum Physics).

Right now, things are copacetic, because all players can do is hit things with a stick and all that needs to be done is things hit with sticks.

In theory, in the future, PCs will be capable of a vast array of skills, and talking to any given person about the needs of his community won't make any sense if there's 20 ogres that need killing, 14 sick children, 50 fighting couples, a dozen letters taken to each city within 200 miles, 5 muggers, a drought, a cave of mysterious symbols, a possesion, etc.

I think everyone will agree that one of the strengths of DF is that the world feels real.  So any system that actually changes the quests available, or a malicious force that follows the player around afflicting character appropriate strife on those around him would break that immersion.

The solution is thus to have all these situations happening and resolving (in a less than ideal manner) all around the PC all the time, and have the hero somewhat isolated from them.

For instance, every time Cain wanders into a city, there's bound to be a few sick people in the city, and a few criminals.  Because Cain is a Shao Lin monk and not a wandering doctor, the system tweaks it so that he is embroiled in the criminal activity and not the sick people.  (He gets mugged, a fight breaks out in front of him, someone 'randomly' comes to him for help, the mayor lists that as the first trouble when he's asked, whatever).

Obviously, for a living world that doesn't know what kind of character you're going to build/play, there'd need to be a LOT of plot threads laying around (plot threads is used losely here, in the same 'go to this guy's house and kill him' sense we've got now) for all the possible play styles.

The trick would be not locking the PC out of the non-standard plots for his type.  Talking to everyone in town, or specificall asking after a certain type of plot (Are there any sick people in town?) should grant access is the 'easy' way to do it.

[Capntastic]

I think the idea is that in the future, these 'plots' will happen because NPCs will have their own personal motivations, rather than the game generating them when you enter a town.   I.E.:  There will be sick people and criminals even if you're not playing adventure mode.

[Granite26]

I think everyone will agree that one of the strengths of DF is that the world feels real.  So any system that actually changes the quests available, or a malicious force that follows the player around afflicting character appropriate strife on those around him would break that immersion.

I think the idea is that in the future, these 'plots' will happen because NPCs will have their own personal motivations, rather than the game generating them when you enter a town.   I.E.:  There will be sick people and criminals even if you're not playing adventure mode.

So, like I said...

If you'll read what I actually wrote, you'll see I'm not suggesting the plots change, but that what is presented to the player is changed.

[Capntastic]

Yeah, but this is already planned.  Why the thread?

Edit:  I'll note that you seem to be asserting that the game 'needs' to generate these plot threads- criminals, sick people, wicked kings needing to be deposed, etc.   Plots will be more abstract than 'you must kill these bandits'.

[Granite26]

Yeah, but this is already planned.  Why the thread?

Where is it planned, or even talked about?

[Capntastic]

Analyze, say, powergoal 102:

# PowerGoal102, SAVE MY DOG, (Future): A sniveling wretch left you for dead, but you weren't dead and after many hardships you return to his town a mighty and imposing warrior. He recognizes you immediately and rather than facing agonizing drawn-out justice at your hand, he ingests a poison, calling out "who will look after my dog?" before he dies. You look after it.

The game doesn't generate a badguy to leave you for dead- assumedly you got in a fight with someone through day to day adventuring, and he left you for dead.   The game wouldn't be planning on your returning for revenge.   The game wouldn't generate a 'revenge' plot, rather, the badguy would live his day to day life out until you return to him.  Upon seeing you, and recognizing you, the character himself would decide that suicide is preferable to facing you.   Again, the character makes his own choice, rather than conforming to a preconcieved plot form letter.

So, yeah, with all the abstractions of motivation and decision going on with the NPCs, the game isn't really going to say "Oh, there's no crime going on, I'd better generate 4d6 bandits to form a crew"- rather, an NPC warlord will simply raze towns to increase his own richness/notoriety.

Edit:  To clarify, the game will generate 'plots' procedurally- characters acting within their personalities and means, rather than 'randomly'.

[Bricks]

I imagine a lot of that procedural plot stuff will go on, but there still needs to be some way for an adventurer to get involved aside from knocking on everyone's door.  Especially when you start a new character, and have no background.

[irmo]

I imagine a lot of that procedural plot stuff will go on, but there still needs to be some way for an adventurer to get involved aside from knocking on everyone's door.  Especially when you start a new character, and have no background.

Shh. Suggesting that the game should be playable? That's just going to attract the haters. What you fail to grasp is that you are part of the procedural generation of plot. Your job is to keep generating hundreds of worlds until you luck into one with an interesting story.

(Hi, Capntastic. Still declaiming # POWERGOAL3.14159 like a fundamentalist quoting from Deuteronomy? Good. Nice to know we can count on some things.)

[Capntastic]

(Hi, Capntastic. Still declaiming # POWERGOAL3.14159 like a fundamentalist quoting from Deuteronomy? Good. Nice to know we can count on some things.)

There's no need to be like that.  I'm just saying that 'plots' will evolve with or without the player's interaction.

[Granite26]

I'm just saying that 'plots' will evolve with or without the player's interaction.

What I'm trying to get at is

A: There should be WAAAAY more potential plots (even if a plot hook is just a sick kid) than a player can finish

B:  The game engine should be smart enough to pick up on what kind of plots the player is looking for and PRESENT the EXISTING hooks for those plots in a simple manner (Unless you think the old man coming up to you in the inn and asking for help is too scripted)

and

C:  The player shouldn't be made to feel like he's missed out on game content or screwed up because he wasn't involved in something, but could be held responsible for not helping out with something the game served up to him.

[Sunday]

I get what you're saying, and I think it makes sense not just for gameplay purposes, but also immersion purposes.

I've you're Urist the FiveFold DragonSlayer, people are more likely to come (and from farther distances) to tell you about feats of combat that need doing.  They probably won't ask you to pick the plants needed to heal their grandmother.  Because you wouldn't be famous for that sort of stuff.  It would even tailor quests to your level.  If you're the greatest warrior in the world, people will come from all over the world to ask your help - and people with minor problems will be less likely to burden you with their minor problems.

[Grendus]

I get what you're saying, and I think it makes sense not just for gameplay purposes, but also immersion purposes.

I've you're Urist the FiveFold DragonSlayer, people are more likely to come (and from farther distances) to tell you about feats of combat that need doing.  They probably won't ask you to pick the plants needed to heal their grandmother.  Because you wouldn't be famous for that sort of stuff.  It would even tailor quests to your level.  If you're the greatest warrior in the world, people will come from all over the world to ask your help - and people with minor problems will be less likely to burden you with their minor problems.

Agreed. And at the same time, Toady wants to put more non-combat skills into the game. So if you're a traveling doctor, people would ask you to pick the plants needed to heal their grandmother.

I totally agree with what you're saying, and while it may have been, at some level, something Toady plans to do it's still good to iron it out like this. Even if it feels a little scripted, the game should present the player with more tasks and tailor the tasks presented to the characters skill set.

[Belteshazzar]

I just imagined what kind of tasks the legendary hauler/cleaner/pumpmaster "Fetchquests: the Unconquered Lifting of Weights" would be called upon the complete! It was glorious...

I had a vision of a stooped, wiry, sunbrowned, man trotting down the road under the weight of a small building strapped to his back. Through rain, through storm, through dark of night, he totes his load to set things right. Kings call upon his magnificent might, to drain a river and clean temples bright.

[Kilo24]

Maybe make it a reputation system.  If you have a reputation as a doctor, people will want to be healed.  If you have a reputation as a warrior, you will have offers to be sponsored in the arena, or a grovelling mayor trying to get a cyclops killed.  If you have a reputation as a thief... well, you're probably not a very good one (but you'll be able to play out a lot of prison break stories.  Or, more likely, just interpret it as an underground reputation and have a stray fence slip you a note for wanted items.)  If it's purely determined by skills, a mighty warrior going to a different land where no one knows you to be a farmer will result in 20 different requests for slaughtering ogres a day.  We also wouldn't be able to play a callow youth who's read and practiced countless tomes on fencing and can't get anyone to take his offers to save the town seriously.

[Granite26]

Oblivion's a big touchstone for me on this...  You run around talking to all these people, and they've got these quests for you, and there's this concept of doing them all, whether they're appropriate for your character or not.  They also tend to be POSSIBLE for any type of character (which is the silliest bit of all.)

There's also this concept of there being ABLE to do all the stuff, just so long as you do it in the right order and don't pick a fight with the wrong guard.  This is kinda broken, because when you try to play again, you're offered the exact same choices, and best case scenario, half the missions you're doing are different.

If you want to play a specific type of character or if you don't take certain missions for RP reasons, it reduces the total number of missions you CAN do before the game is over.

With DF, it's expected the the world is moving on, and the next character you play will have completely different options.  There's no way to map out the best quests, or the right quest to get this specific item that's really good for the class you want to play.  The advantage is, you should be able to find enough stuff to do that's in character or in your skill set.  The problem is, if you've got a living world that doesn't know who or what you want to be before you become it, the only way to create sufficient challenges for that character is for the gameworld to behave in such a way that there's sufficient challenges for almost any character.  Now you've got your quest dense world, but how's your character to find those challenges that are right for him?