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Author Topic: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF  (Read 3578 times)

Anu Necunoscut

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The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« on: September 09, 2009, 12:48:41 am »

A weird title, I agree.  Now prepare for a wall of text!

DF is awesome.  The game mechanics are awesome, the capacity for creative play is awesome, and the focus on procedurally-generated content and emergent behavior is awesome.

Given that awesomeness, here's my main criticism: Once you learn to build a sustainable fort in a reasonably dangerous environment, the sense of challenge, exploration and wonder tends to depart from the main game and retreats to the margins--defined mostly by staged combats, megaconstructions, self-imposed challenges, and mods.  These are all cool enough, but they are certainly peripheral to some extent, no?  Why do veteran players need to work that marginalia to have fun?

The reason, in my view: the main tasks of the game which place enormous demands on the new player too easily become rote reflex for the veteran.  It's fucking magical the first time you irrigate an underground farm, or conceive of some creatively air-tight defense against invasion, or are finally able to keep your fortress active, fed and happy/drunk.  Once you've scaled DF's cliff-face of a learning curve, however, these formerly exciting struggles are rushed through with a few ho-hum and formulaic key-presses.

The new player of DF is always asking "can I?"  Can I get a farm up?  Can I get a wall and gate in place before ambushers come?  Can I keep my dwarves from going mad and bashing each other to pieces?  Can my military take on this dragon?  Can I survive?  The sense of exploration and challenge those questions evoke can absolutely devour one's time once the interface is mastered--it's incredibly satisfying and addicting.  Unexpected events, by turns frightening and hilarious, come in a flood to the new player.  Creative solutions to problems are wonderfully encouraged--if it seems like it should work, it probably will!  In general it seems something fresh is always around the corner.

For the vet player, the exciting question "can I?" frequently degrades to "should I?"  Should I negate invaders via a wall of traps?  Should I queue up "(P)ull the lever" for this troublesome fetishist of a noble?  Should I build a 30 z-level execution tower?  Should I civilize this haunted tundra?  This happens because for the veteran there's never much doubt of success in dealing with the core challenges of the game--the former flood of unexpected situations drops to an easy drizzle, dotted by frenzied searches for weirdness or novelty anywhere it might be generated by the game (combat, dangerous sites, megaconstructions) or the player (modding, forced challenges).

Part of the reason so many "Should I?" players stick with the game is that the game rewards experimentation and creativity so well--but it's a shame that a certain degree of skill in manipulating the mechanics damns you to search for fun in peripheral things, while the main object (to survive/thrive) is never in doubt.  Why isn't it?  Probably because the formula for survival in one site/world is virtually identical to the formula for survival in another.

I've seen some argue that the solution is 2D-style scripted events and challenges, but that's ultimately an empty solution--any scripted challenge will simply be absorbed into a player's "winning" formula of play.  Each new "scripted" challenge would be fun until surmounted once, and then it would fall to tedium, doubtless generating demand for yet more scripted challenges, and so it would go.  Moreover, many of the 2D challenges were due to lack of control or unfinished mechanics--+pig tail sock+ chasing and vicious elephants, for example.

The right solution in my opinion is to use all the variety and interaction already in place to make each site/world play in a meaningfully different way.  If I embark on an evil cliff during the murderous and war-gnawed Age of the Demon in one world, I don't want it to be essentially the same as starting in a benign wilderness during the Age of Snuggly Peace in another.  My population of dwarves, their personalities and the effects their experiences have on them, should be warped and altered by their personal history, the world's history and their fort's environment/style.

It shouldn't come at the cost of player control, or denying features--it should just add situational challenge/flavor, which the player should meet with the full array of complexity and creative options DF already possesses.  A fort of flabby peaceniks shouldn't fight or make weapon traps like dwarves born into fear and constant war, but you should still be able to order them into the breach!  (Doubtless to watch them get slaughtered, panic, drop their weapons, lock themselves in their bedrooms, etc.)  A noble holding court in a fort sited on a haunted tundra shouldn't enact the same demands/mandates as his luxurious counterpart in a fort sited on a benign mountain valley--he'd probably want a fucking coat, not a black bronze cabinet.

These situational changes shouldn't just be petty annoyances with easily avoidable consequences--they should make it hard for a mature fort to -survive-.  The new player has challenges aplenty getting his first 80+ dwarf fort operational, but once there, it would be nice if he were asking "can I survive this?" a lot more

These are worthless ramblings, and it's easy to say "it should be like this" while blithely ignoring the difficulty of the work Toady's doing.  He's done a more amazing job already than I could hope for--I'd just like to see the core game demand more and more of a players' skill with the mechanics after he learns the ropes, not less and less.
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Chandrasekhar

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2009, 01:01:53 am »

I've noticed this too, but it seems to me that the game's development is already heading in this direction anyway.
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Kilo24

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2009, 01:07:05 am »

...I'd just like to see the core game demand more and more of a players' skill with the mechanics after he learns the ropes, not less and less.
The thing is that it's still very much a work in progress.  To have skill at a game you need to understand when using each option is desirable in a given situation; to make that a non-trivial choice you'll need to balance out the options so they work differently in different situations.  Most games will save balancing as a last step because adding in new features really screws with the balance enough to mostly invalidate earlier attempts at it.  If Toady spends a lot of time making the majority of options equally viable, that will add a lot of development time.

But, this is hardly a standard model of releases.  If he didn't think about balance until later on in development, we'd get a pretty unplayable game.  As it stands right now, we're getting a decent middle-of-the-road approach: he does a decent attempt at balancing but errs on the side of making the game easy (in general) and leaves people seeking higher difficulty the opportunity to mod.  As far as I'm concerned, he's doing pretty well.
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Sir Finkus

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2009, 02:18:47 am »

I really think the next update will fix a lot of this.  I think a lot of the predictability of dwarf fortress now is due to the fact that once you go down a few levels, there is really isn't much you need to worry about.  Expanding your fort isn't really all that dangerous at the moment.  Except in very limited instances, you don't really have to build around natural hazards, or worry about digging into something nasty all that much.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I really see the cave system toady is adding making things a LOT more interesting.  You might think a bit longer before mining out your next room if there is a risk of breaching a cave and releasing baddies into your fort, completely ignoring your magma moat and 5x25 hall of weapon traps.

When it comes down to it, I really think the underground should be unknown.  Right now, all you have to worry about is what you are going to do with all that damn rock.

tl;dr

The deeper you delve, the higher the risk (and reward) should be.  Maybe even have a layer of magma on the bottom level on all maps or something as incentive.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 02:21:19 am by Sir Finkus »
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XSI

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 03:52:55 am »

I've noticed this too, and agree on most of it, and as said before, the next release will fix it or at least take a big step in the right direction.

Oh, and I liked reading that.
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Chronas

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 06:48:44 am »

I really think the next update will fix a lot of this.  I think a lot of the predictability of dwarf fortress now is due to the fact that once you go down a few levels, there is really isn't much you need to worry about.  Expanding your fort isn't really all that dangerous at the moment.  Except in very limited instances, you don't really have to build around natural hazards, or worry about digging into something nasty all that much.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I really see the cave system toady is adding making things a LOT more interesting.  You might think a bit longer before mining out your next room if there is a risk of breaching a cave and releasing baddies into your fort, completely ignoring your magma moat and 5x25 hall of weapon traps.

When it comes down to it, I really think the underground should be unknown.  Right now, all you have to worry about is what you are going to do with all that damn rock.

tl;dr

The deeper you delve, the higher the risk (and reward) should be.  Maybe even have a layer of magma on the bottom level on all maps or something as incentive.
Well put.
All my challenges derive from a design point of view instead of a survival point of view.
My fortresses are more likely to be abandoned because of a designation mess-up than crushed by an army of marauders.
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It should be pretty fun though.

Armok

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 08:08:36 am »

This is a known issue, it's getting fixed in the next release.
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Ironhand

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2009, 08:25:21 am »

It's fun to build stable, artistic fortresses that are just totally over-the-top, but the world just isn't scary anymore.
I miss being surprised by stuff. I miss the terrifying and plan-destroying unknown. Change makes for fun.
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Granite26

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2009, 09:14:34 am »

I think the Can I vs Should I drives a lot more conflict than that.

The Should I ideal expects it's goals to be possible, and thus fights against things like digging invaders and other forms of 'but that would make it impossible to accomplish this goal that may or may not be reasonable but is possible now.

The Can I ideal... expects the crazy challenges you were just talking about that means building a fort in a haunted tundra may actually be impossible no matter what you do, but when you accomplish they mean something your lack of social life.



I think world gen will fix a lot of this.  Starting a world and a fort, and not necessarily knowing the politics, trade routes, what the dominent monsters are, random titans, and differing racial abilities/tech levels creates a crazy broad challenge that can't be simply pattern-memorized.

The same with the more complicated underground stuff.  You won't be able to plop down an ideal template farm or defense anymore, because of the 'stuff' density.

Skorpion

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2009, 11:46:41 am »

I think you missed the third stage, there. 'What's stopping me from?', or 'Why can't I?'. Surmounting obstacles to accomplish your intended goal DESPITE such things as there being a river in the way of the magma moat, a taxi rank of giant bats attacking anything humanoid, or the fact that the mostly harmless giant eagle you shot for the bling factor of having a giant eagle tallow soap wall has given way to a group of sasquatches, a race that now appears to have menaced the nearby humans and caused the unfortunate incident with the mad diplomat and the dog that tore him to shreds.
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Elves do it in trees. Humans do it in wooden structures. Dwarves? Dwarves do it underground. With magma.

Lawec

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2009, 01:05:15 pm »

I really think the next update will fix a lot of this.  I think a lot of the predictability of dwarf fortress now is dThe deeper you delve, the higher the risk (and reward) should be.  Maybe even have a layer of magma on the bottom level on all maps or something as incentive.

Magma aquifer?  :D
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Johnny Chthonic

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2009, 01:16:19 pm »

I thought the former basically always means the latter.
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DaPatman

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2009, 04:09:04 pm »

I thought the former basically always means the latter.
Not necessarily. When I asked myself "Should I build a calculator powered by the desire of pets to be with their masters?", the answer I gave myself was a resounding yes. When I then asked myself "Can I build it?", however, I was unable to answer it so easily. Granted, this is because I'm not sure if I can set up logic gates to perform long division, but still...
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Leafsnail

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2009, 04:11:30 pm »

My thought processes:

- Random idea

- Can I do it?  Y/N

- If N, think of another random idea.

- If Y, would it be awesome in some way?  Y/N

- If N, think of another random idea.

- If Y, do it.
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Draco18s

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Re: The balance of "Can I?" and "Should I?" in DF
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2009, 04:25:17 pm »

Should I build a 30 z-level execution tower?

Yes.

Now how do I make more awesome?

Make it out of POURED OBSIDIAN?  YES.
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