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[Jonathan S. Fox]

If we go with the Machiavellian approach, I'm inclined to keep the effects of fear and love independent, as suggested by Think0028. In other words, fear doesn't reverse or reinforce the effects of love, love doesn't reverse or reinforce the effects of fear. For example, if fear makes interrogations easier, I would want love to have no effect on interrogations. If low amounts of love (hate) make juries more likely to want you hanged, I wouldn't want that to depend on their not fearing you as well.

[Zangi]

Hmmm...  it will make things so much more simple on a programming end.

We can do it that way.  Maybe leave it open for later if you ever decide and think of a good way to make the love-fear effect... crossover?

[Duuvian]

One thing I think is that the CCS doesn't raid enough to raise political violence approval past 0% unless I've been helping them  and even then it's hard to get it past 60% without having people starting to hate the LCS. Maybe they could raid more or it could "spike" more per raid, where the average CCS raid makes it hit 90ish percent all by itself, possibly because they control the media.

Perhaps a new activity could be made, "Advocate Liberal Resistance" that would increase the approval rate of political violence without using violence and thus ruining your rep. On the other hand if the CCS is really tearing it up you could "Condemn Conservative Terrorism"

[Oksbad]

I liked the old system better, much more potential for senseless violence.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

After much consideration, I've reversed my earlier inclination to keep love and fear 100% separate. However, I'd still like them to be mostly separate. More ideas and thoughts in this direction are still welcome, as I think it has the potential to be a neat replacement for the current system.

I don't want to just tweak the political violence system, honestly, I want to throw it out completely. I think my idea to put it in was somewhat ill-conceived in the first place, and I agree with Oksbad's sense that the old system was much better. In that sense, I envision the love/fear system not as a change to the political violence system, but rather as an idea for how to take the core concept behind political violence and turn it into something that's actually fun and responsive instead of just restraining.

[Leafsnail]

Sounds great, can't wait to terrify the conservative masses.

[Peepshow]

Just a thought. It might make things a bit more complicated but wouldn't respect/contempt for LCS power come into play for the whole love/hate thing? People would fear you but might try to put up a fight if they don't respect your power. Here's how I see it in respect to civies:

Respect: Will stay out of your way and not try to stop you. 
Contempt: Will try to fight you more often, call the police, raise alarm etc.

[chaoticag]

My two cents:

Political violence is the only thing that raises tolerance to violence, right? (Correct me if I am wrong)

So, raising the issues also raises an unrest "issue". You can also get your sleepers to "incite rebeliousness" or something to put people on edge, but Liberty help you if they get caught (disturbing the peace? raising heat?). Eventually there are news stories about brawls during demonstrations, splinter groups of liberalism form, the CCS and splinter groups of that form and you all duke it out in the streets. This means that routing out the CCS is harder, but getting hit by a CCS raid should be harder as well, with their attempts to shut down the other groups causing the headlines, giving you a warning.

What I want to get at here, is the feeling that this is bigger than just a LCS or CCS struggle, but a  sort of nation wide struggle.

[Servant Corps]

Keeping with the idea of Liberalism versus Conservativism, while at the same time stressing that society is, well, more polarized...

Before this discussion began for Political Violence, I was thinking of having a society that favors political violence will favor it, and there will be higher chances of people taking it upon themselves to cause Political Terrorism, based on the mood of the nation, and the priorities of issues.

If the nation is liberal, then there are more conservative terrorist attacks by non-CCS groups (since the Conservatives feel threatened and feel that they must conduct violence in order to get their message across), and if the nation is conservative, there are more liberal terrorist attacks by non-LCS groups (for the same reason).

[HAMMERMILL]

I liked the old system better. Everything should be solved by terrorism and concerted violence in this game.

How about to compensate, the CCS gains more support and gains strength more then it would have without violence on your part? It would represent conservatives becoming frightened and become motivated to fight you. Like all those people that joined the Army after 9-11 to "get even" and what not.

The more you rely on violence and site actions, the more the CCS retailates in kind and their vigilantes. They quickly become more powerful like what happens if you ignore them for too long.


As it stands now with the tolerance for political violence thing, there is hardly to no way to win by juicing up Hippies and turning the country into a bloodbath to further the liberal cause.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

I like that idea of strengthening the CCS faster -- and perhaps making it more likely that they attack your safehouses -- if the country fears you. Other effects of fear could be mostly positive for you, such as enhanced interrogation effectiveness, more likely for low-end Conservatives to flee, and so on.

[HAMMERMILL]

Maybe a higher portion of conservative civilians would be packing heat (and would try to fight, while unarmed conservatives would flee on sight) and security guards could be more numberous as the paranoia and terror wracks the general population. Maybe conservatives and moderates would be more alert and be more suspicious of disguises and would be keeping an eye out for liberals sneaking around where they don't belong?

Basically just to make it scale a little for a player who relies on violence and is good at it, so the more successful they are, the more fear they generate, the more resistance they meet. While a player that struggles and often makes disasterous botched raids will lower fear and lower the resistance they meet on site actions.

[Neonivek]

Yep it is the thing about the CCS that I still would love for it to continue. The better you do the more effective the CCS become.

I liked the old system better. Everything should be solved by terrorism and concerted violence in this game.

Yeah Sleepers have gone from being a bonus to being the most effective way to beat the game. They really should enhance your ability to act as well as providing specific bonuses in their fields or allowing you to reach them (having a student sleeper should make reaching students easier).

In otherwords a sleeper may not even need to actually advocate your possition but rather make other people aware of your existance. Though it makes me wonder how Prime Targets should be done. Love and Fear simply aid the Sleepers in this endevour.

I don't know if I am off topic.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Honestly, sleepers have always been the most effective way to beat the game. It used to be that five or so News Anchors and a disband would win you the game. The system as it stands now reinforces that, but without accelerating public opinion changes from site actions and expanding the range of documents and specials you can find on site, it's unlikely to change without turning the game into a very drawn-out affair.

[Megaman]

sleepers have to be easier to loose, gain juice faster, and not be so obesly awesome. Politcal violience should go up MUCH faster, considering this game was originally made to be a terrorism sim.