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[The-Moon]

quote:Originally posted by Draco18s:
<STRONG>"Even as late as the 17th century, steam engines were created as one-off curiosities."

Based on Toady saying anything after about 1400 is a good indicator to NOT include something I'm thinking that steam engines would be no more than trinkets and crafts (the rotating ball seein in the wiki article).</STRONG>

Well according to the history channel, the great library contained scrolls depicting a basic early steam engine from around 1 A.D. Or well they were plans for it. They were drawn up by one of those famous inventors back then.

Steam Power was very much feasible back in the day. The only reason it never caught on is because they didn't actually have a use for it.

I guess it could have been adopted for industrial use, but it never happened. No one managed too put two and two together.

So since "Steam Power" was known from before 1400, is a good indicator that its possible to have it in the game?  

In fact i was just watching this thing on the history channel last night about Chinese land mines.

They were literally land mines. Large Cannon Like Balls stuffed with black power with a trip wire linked to a box with flint, which lit a fuse.

Pretty damn cool. This was hundreds of years before the modern ones came about.

[ February 27, 2008: Message edited by: The-Moon ]

[Tigerbunny]

I would be pleased to have a real powerconsumer first before thinking about adding more ways to produce it.
also the fact that perpetuum mobiles are possible//easy to build is a true indicator of the powersystem being a makeshift arrangement.
At least I hope this.

/edit:  cancels reading post, interrupted by grammar
sorry, im a tired german trying to get my 2 cents across    :roll:

[ February 27, 2008: Message edited by: Tigerbunny ]

[ClimbingEast]

I'd like to see functionality added which would allow the modding community to develop and test their steampunk, and other ideas out.

From the modding guides I've looked through, it doesn't look like one can mod the buildings available to dwarves, or what jobs those buildings process, job skills they require to build, construction materials, power required/generated etc.  It'd also be nice to be able to mod the machineries.

Instead of pestering ToadyOne to work on such things as throwing in boilers, folks could put their energies into developing their ideas and testing them, then putting them up for others to take a look at (:
In fact, we can do that now actually, minus the testing bit.

I bring this back up because there seems to have been alot of interest (and disinterest) in Steam power development for Dwarf Fortress. Its probably one of those additions to the game that would be better left as a mod, and an option.

[Draco18s]

Thing is, adding something like a steam engine to DF requires a lot of back end code not covered under the raws.

[BurnedToast]

I think it's a good idea, but like gunpowder I'm in the minority.

Like Tigerbunny said though, we really need more power consumers before anything like this is considered. Who cares if we can build geothermal steam planets or perpetual motion machines or dwarven nuclear reactors if all we have to power are pumps (very situational) or millstones (little to no improvement vs a quern).

[Neonivek]

In most cases you would need a geothermic generator or Steam engine to pump water... You probably don't have access to either.

[ClimbingEast]

As there are alot of steam related topics already, and this one in particular seemed to be most in line with what I had to say. My intent in reawkening this topic was not only to bring attention back to steam-tech, but also to steer the conversation towards discussion about the development of some minimal framework the modding community would need to create their own steam and machinery buildings/utilities.

Being able to edit raws for workshops and machinery components would probably do the trick, as well as open up a host of other possibilities for modding besides just steam-punk.

Is anyone else interested in this more than just having a couple hard coded structures?

[mickel]

I agree with Tigerbunny here. Why generate power when there's nothing to do with it yet? We have windmills and water wheels that pretty much only have novelty uses so far.

[Grek]

We need to be able to make traps with spinning sawblades. We could also do with mine carts and conveyor belts. Maybe massive fans to create wind tunnels that send goblins/elfs flying out of your fort and into spike filled pits of carp?

[Silverionmox]

quote:We need to be able to make traps with spinning sawblades.[/

Uhm.. large, serrated steel disks? But you're right of course, anything more complicated than a falling rock/trapdoor trap should require power (or at least, a steel spring) to make it work. That will reduce the omnipotence of the standard traps. And stone-fall traps should require ceilings.

Steam Power was very much feasible back in the day. The only reason it never caught on is because they didn't actually have a use for it.

I guess it could have been adopted for industrial use, but it never happened. No one managed too put two and two together.

No, slave power was cheap + fuel was expensive. So, using fuel to generate power would have been a losing proposition.

[Techhead]

We have 2 sources of power and 2 things that use power.
I would rather have a new use for power instead another way to make it, especially if the new power source uses a non-renewable resource.
Geothermal, as cool as it sounds, is way beyond the the tech level of our dwarves. It was first tested in 1904. Yes, the twentieth century.

If I was going to pick another source of power, I would pick tread-wheels, or other animal engines, where we could either use tame animals of a perquisite size, or captive prisoners.
If I was going to pick a single industrial age technology, that could be made without any other tech the dwarves do not have, I would probably pick conveyors, invented in the 18th century.

[ricemastah]

I must agree with the 'new use for power'. I myself haven't used power at all because the uses are purely novelty. It would be nice to have a gigantic waterfall run by a perpetual motion device, but in reality it is unnecessary.
What Toady needs to do is clear up the whole law of physics fudging, and create a new use for power. Like conveyor belts. That would be useful, and probably somewhat in keeping to the game. OR constantly on traps. In fact requiring traps to have power would actually make power useful. Of course power as a requirement becomes moot with limitless power.
My example:
Traps require power.
Weapons in weapon traps require 10 power per weapon. A fully loaded weapon trap then requires 100 power to activate. They still activate automatically when stepped on. They would require and additional mechanism and power would be abstracted from a connection to a gear assembly.
Stone Fall traps. 10 each same as above.
Cage traps, same as above
Pressure plate activated traps. They only require 10 PER UPRIGHT TRAP. So a pressure plate can be linked to multiple spear traps, and each spear trap can have up to 10 spears/spikes. So a pressure plate linked to 10 spears costs 100 power, but can activate up to 100 spears!
This would make pressure plates more useful instead of the overwhelming weapon trap hallways. Again limitless power needs to be fixed for this to have any use. Just a thought, and of course the numbers are only for demonstration.

[Neonivek]

Whoa rice... Power is hard enough to handle without needing to spring it on every trap you have available (Id probably stop playing the game immediately or start cheating like mad)

One use traps unless particularly powerful, and reasonable for it to use such, should NEVER use power... I mean... when in the world did anyone have to hook up twigs and leaves to a power generator for someone to fall down it when they became too heavy?

Weapon traps are iffy to me because I don't know how they work. They could for example actually just use the force of the person activating them to function and can revolve back into place. Or they are just so elaborate that they simple can be used as many times as nessisary (For example in movies when the person triggers the arrow traps... you rarely see them activate all the arrows)

Traps to me that would require constant power could be something like a Wind Machine, a grinder that processes enemies instantly (admit it you would love it!!!), Resetting moving boulders, or Traps that work non-stop. They should either work constantly or require power to reset without a mechanic.

Note: Ive found out how Stonefall traps work... Basically it is a small hole with a plank, one end has a boulder and the other is the plank... when they land on it, it hurls the stone up where it falls on the enemy.

[ricemastah]

I would like to point out power is relatively useless right now. I'm trying to find a use for it by putting it on something it seems that many players use. I myself don't use power OR traps, so my thoughts should probably be ignored.

Take serrated discs for example. A serrated disc imply it is a cutting implement that uses rotation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like simply stepping on a trigger will somehow activate the trap and cause all the blades to rapidly rotate and cut into the enemies. I'm willing to believe that simply stepping on the trap could indeed activate it, and that it would be capable of reseting on its own, but the rotation needs to be powered in my opinion.
Spears and giant ax blades, at least in weapon traps would spring out from the walls. Again my question is where is the power for this action? What generates it? The simple stepping on the trigger? What mechanism in the trigger creates this power? None that we can see  according to the game. It just happens. I could see a weight/force ratio being devised but it seems to confusing to be implemented. I would rather have a straight 'This trap uses this much power no matter what creature steps on it' as opposed to 'something light won't have any pain inflicted to it'.
If giant ax blades are like pendulums, then I could see how power would be unnecessary for them. They swing when activated and reset when they complete their arc. But it is a limited case. And such a trap should be easy to dodge. But as we all know traps are unavoidable.
I will admit stone fall traps and cage traps are a bit much, but with the ability to place traps outside it seemed like a good idea.

[Grek]

Here's my idea for powered traps:

Stonefall: Never requires power. Requires roof. Trap goes off by unlatching a hatch, letting the stone fall. Same settings a pressure plate.

Cage trap: Same as stonefall, but with a cage. Same settings a pressure plate.

Unpowered weapon trap: Uses one mechanism, goes off using the force applied by the monster stepping on it. Damage is based on the creature's weight, except for ranged weapons, which go off as normal. Auto-resets, unless auto-reseting is toggled off from [q] screen. A minimum weight can be set, with a lower limit as the quality of mechanism goes up. Masterwork mechanisms can be set to go off for vermin.  

Spring weapon trap: Uses a spring (one extra mechanism, requires no power, does damage based on the quality of the better of the two mechanisms. Does not auto-reset; requires a mechanic manually do it. Same settings a pressure plate.

Powered weapon trap: Conected to a gearbox or axle, just like a millstone with same rate of power loss. Always on and hits dwarves that end up in them. Dwarves will path around the traps, unless they are insane. Speed and damage are directy proportional to the amount of power generated by the system minus the power used for non-trap devices, divided by the number of traps in the system. At high enough rates of power, a single row will produce elephant paste. Can be turned off and on using a lever hooked up to a gear box.

Pressure plate: Works as it does now.

[ June 05, 2008: Message edited by: Grek ]