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[timmeh]

Doh!  I knew I forgot something... I disabled the weird rooms for testing, here's a map with them:


Not the best example, but it'll do.  I know the 'L' halls would be useful, but they'll also be time consuming to write.  I'm going to get the rest of it thrown together first, and then come back and build onto the maps once I'm caught back up.  The rest shouldn't take too long though.  The movement and such should be very quick, the LoS will take however long it takes me to figure out the thing Bricks posted, items might take a couple days, while I figure out if it would be better to use child classes/inheriting and how... but the enemies and spells will be nearly copy-paste, cause they're already nice, clean(ish) classes and stuff.

[Nivim]

 It does look better. Before release, would it be easy to add other rooms, like this one with pillars?

Code: [Select]

2, 2, 2, ^, 2, 2, 2
2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2
2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2
<, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, >
2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2
2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2
2, 2, 2, v, 2, 2, 2

[timmeh]

For me to add them?  Yes, very.  For anyone else... not so much.  It's a little weird and cryptic (and hard-coded, but since I include the source...) at the moment.  I'm going to try and have it load them from a file some time tomorrow, but first I'll have to figure out a format for them ([] tags don't work so well for multi-line stuff...), and I'm not feeling too well at the moment, so I'm going to bed early.

Anyways, I'll probably add a couple more rooms (your pillar room for one, I've got a couple ideas, and if anyone else wants a design in just let me know) before I put the tech-demo out.  Just a bit of a fore-warning for those who look at the source code though, the map generation is still a mess.  It's a very function mess that I've grown rather fond of, but it's still a mess.  I'll get around to cleaning it up soon, now that I've got it working all the way, but it may or may not be before the tech-demo.

[Nivim]

Yeah, I meant before the release. I thought that since you only added one test they might be hard to add. Have a library for some time later:

Code: [Select]

2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2
2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2
2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2
<, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, >
2, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2
2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2
2, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2
2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2
2, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2
<, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, >
2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2
2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2
2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2
 Which leads into a question of mine; do you plan on making it so spawn points for items and/or monsters may be added to the room template? Such as adding scrolls between each "bookcase" in the room above?

[Bricks]

Like Nivm's suggested rooms, and that circular one, rooms that have constrained visibility would be nice.  Also, this is more of a long-term suggestion, but rooms don't always need doors to connect them, and some entryways could be larger (1x2, 1x3, etc).

In that most recent picture, you have a door that leads to nowhere.  Sort of funny if it happens occasionally, but probably not intended.

[Org]

Looking good

[quinnr]

Like Nivm's suggested rooms, and that circular one, rooms that have constrained visibility would be nice.  Also, this is more of a long-term suggestion, but rooms don't always need doors to connect them, and some entryways could be larger (1x2, 1x3, etc).

In that most recent picture, you have a door that leads to nowhere.  Sort of funny if it happens occasionally, but probably not intended.

As I recall, doesn't nethack have this problem? Or is it just that I have such a low search stat?

[timmeh]

Okay, first off, there's been very little progress cause I've been sick the last few days, and in bed more than on the computer...  but there is still some.  I've fixed the door-to-nowhere problem, and I've added the library and pillar rooms.


@Nivm - Eventually, yes.  First I need to get the maps to remember what rooms are where after generation finishes.  At the moment it only remembers it long enough to check if the room fits and cut it out, doesn't record it anywhere.  That's my goal for this afternoon though, so it may not be too long...

@Bricks - Good point, I'll look into that later.

I woke up this morning feeling well enough so I'll be tackling getting the rooms moved into files later (first I need breakfast, and I need to make a few calls.......).  Once I've got them in the files I may go ahead and have it load a name and description for each room, and see if I can get the map to recognize the rooms and use the names/descriptions in a sort of look action.  It wouldn't be that interesting, since I won't have the time at the moment to get the semi-random part done to spice them up, but it would make adding it later sooooo much easier...

[EDIT]:  Rooms are now in a file.  Just need to get it to remember the name and description and I can move on.

Code: [Select]

[name:Small Room]
[desc:A small empty room.]
[begin]
22^22
21112
<111>
21112
22v22
[end]
[EDIT2]: Is saves the name and description (and everything else for that mater) now.  Just need to clean it up a bit and I can move on to movement and collisions.  Then I'll try adding the basic look function to give a room name and description, then I can tackle line of sight.  Once all that is done I'll put out a tech demo for you guys to mess around with.

[Outcast Orange]

This is really starting to be a cool game.
Have you thought of expanding the levels, with a moving view?
That may be asking too much, but would allow more room for later.

Here is a neat idea:

Have the bottom level be very wide and round,
and each level beyond that a little smaller,
maybe every 5 floors.
Then you could sort of have a gauge of your progress,
and the rooms at the top would be significantly more important.
You could even add "balcony" rooms when the maps got smaller.
Maybe you should have it save the already explored levels?

Here's a somewhat more complex idea:
Have it map a "safe" route through each floor, to the exit.
Then, in the rooms that don't make up part of the safe route,
fill in varying degrees of enemies,
with some sort of door that would clue you that the room was dangerous.
Then, you could come back later, when stronger,
to explore the places you couldn't before.

I made a really epic map for Arcanum like this,
it had keys, passwords, and teleporters.
You can make this into some sort of procedural tower maze.
That is all I have right now.

Just some food for thought.
I'm really liking the rooms though.

[Nivim]

 Looks like it didn't take long.
 The map looks like someone might have actually designed it now. My library doesn't really look like a library from above though... Did you make it so only one could appear each area or is it just because of the size?
 Is it at all possible for rooms to fit into the corners of the "circular" rooms? I haven't seen it happen yet.

[timmeh]

@Nivm - It's just the size.  The rooms could fit into it, but it doesn't seem to happen very often...  But yes, void (empty space) tiles are ignored when it goes to check if a room will fit.  I'm considering trying some really weird stuff later, but I'm on a roll with the player related stuff at the moment

@Outcast Orange - As to the moving view, I'll sleep on it.  I'm sorta torn on it, it would probably be a lot better in the long run to at least let it be an option, but it would be tricky to put in... we'll see though, I'm feeling up for a challenge

As to the rooms changing size: the circular thing ought to be as simple as hard-coding a wall around the area I want to constrain it to, and changing the size would be easy enough cause it's already a variable.  (Actually, it's a constant, but it wouldn't take me five minutes to have the map generation function take it as an argument)  The only issue here is that, at the moment, ToA could act as an engine for just about any style of Rogue-Like, but if I hard-code map limitations it wouldn't.  There's the option of making them options in a file, but that would be a pain.  Still, I really do like the idea, so I may do it anyways, something else to sleep on I guess.

As to the safe route, I love this idea!  Of course, I have no idea where to even start trying to write it, but still   If I can figure out some way to do this I will.  I'm thinking I'd probably make the doors stick the first time you try to open them if there's something particularly powerful behind them... of course, challenge is rewarding so any room with powerful guardians would likely be filled with impressive treasures.  The hard part it figuring out how to get the distance from the necessary path I guess, but I'll look into it.


On that note, here are my thoughts on the map saving and such.  The Tower would be almost like the stair cases in the Harry Potter books.  It changes when no one is looking.  This means leaving a level without uncovering it's secrets could mean they'd be lost to you forever.  However, I'll probably keep track of the previous floor at least, maybe two.  And particularly powerful treasures might stay, but be moved along with their guardians to a new position on the new map.  Any thoughts?

[EDIT]:  Another random thought, if I do use the shrinking map idea, I'd have to shrink every 5 levels unless I also greatly enlarge the maps.  Otherwise I wouldn't be able to get many maps out of it.  Thinking about that, if I do use the round maps idea I'll probably also add a scrolling view, if only to allow maps that are just as tall as they are wide.... decisions, decisions, decisions...

[qwertyuiopas]

The problem comes when the player wants to leave a cache of items on a certain floor.

Maybe have lockable chests, with weaker materials/locks having a chance of being broken by the inhabitants, and anything just left lying around will become loot on that and nearby levels...

Possibly also you could intentionally leave massive ammounts of gold on a level and it may attract particularily greedy creatures, who would slowly accumulate wealth but are nearly impossible to kill, though they stay farr from the required path to the entrance/exit, until disturbed. And doors to their lairs should give a "You hear the sounds of ... probably should not disturb it"

Just think of Smaug, who took the dwarves' massive ammounts of treasure from them, and then added to it. It took great luck to kill it, but when it was dead, there was a huge treasure left over, probably greater than before it invaded.

[Nivim]

 I think it would be a good idea to record anything special (when you get to special monsters/treasures) that was "missed" in a level of the tower so when the tower "changed" it could be replaced. Also, I don't think you should relate it to Hogwartz's staircase; that thing didn't change very much, and could change while you were still on it. I would prefer that occupied (by monster or artifact) rooms did not change, but instead moved around; like boats on an ocean. Non-artifact objects would be eaten/destroyed or sent somewhere other than the room they were in.

 I still imagine the tower as an inexplicably infinite spontaneous phenomenon. A great pillar of white; piercing earth, sky, and star.

[timmeh]

Remembering monsters and stuff could work, but I'm thinking saving the entire floors would be a lot easier...we'll see, first I need to get FoV in.

I really like the idea of having monsters guarding huge treasures far off the main path, but that still leaves the problem of figuring out how far a room is from the main path...

Anyways, I'm not entirely with it at the moment.  My head-aches are coming back, so I'm probably done for the day.  I'll get on again tomorrow and look through the suggestions again with a clear head, and hopefully I can figure something out...

[Outcast Orange]

If your rooms have any sort of a linking list, as in which rooms are connected to which,
you could do some simple path finding to find a possible route from beginning to end.
It doesn't have to be the fastest or most direct route.

A good thing to do would be to have randomly locked doors, as long as they aren't on the main path.
And randomly dropped keys too.
Don't worry about which keys open which doors or which keys already exist, just make it completely random.

For instance, you could find a blue key, and never find a blue door, in the entire tower,
or you might find one right next to the key.
Random is fun.
Then the player could remember the keys they need, and  when they find one,
either dropped by an enemy,
or hidden in a room behind a concealed door,
they will feel truly rewarded instead of just finding some random piece of equipment like in other rogue-likes.

I never find rogue-likes with a good lock/key system.
To tell you the truth, this is really getting me back in the mood to mod Arcanum.
Maybe I'll give it another shot some time.
It was so fun to draw up a random labyrinth, then fill in the rooms with random creatures and randomly
themed puzzles.
Maybe I can capture the same feel in my eventual dungeons.