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[ToonyMan]

gah i was kinda hoping there was a cop and they'd check pandar out and then it would have been too easy

That would have made things worst.  Pandarsenic was a Godfather, he would come up town to cop checks.

[Vector]

gah i was kinda hoping there was a cop and they'd check pandar out and then it would have been too easy

That would have made things worst.  Pandarsenic was a Godfather, he would come up town to cop checks.

... Wouldn't that be the point, from Diakron's point of view?

[ToonyMan]

Oh, hah hah.  I keep forgetting.  Don't mind the pause.

[Pandarsenic]

Yeah, I figured it'd be helpful but I wasn't betting on it - I imagine that as an IC, Toony and I would be among the first checked if there was a cop.

[JoshuaFH]

For the record:  The only special role was held by Pandasenic as the Godfather.  Everyone else was vanilla. 

Dead Chat

Mafia Chat

if I get the chance, tonight I'll put up some post game info.  For now, I welcome everyone to comment on the game.

WAIT WAIT WAIT! If there was no cop role, how come you gave the mafia a role that is specifically immune to cops?

[Rysith]

This was discussed in the last beginner mafia thread. It's a possibility so that the mafia can't determine the existence of a cop from the existence of a godfather.

[dakarian]

I literally ran a random setting to roles.  There was a chance for a cop, doc, and godfather in any combination.  It just sort of ended up with no townie powers and an IC as the Godfather.  It was funny since it was suggested that I would make the game that way, I said "no, it'll be random' then my randomness dropped that.

In any case, a few words in general:

You guys weren't that bad in hunting early on.  The problem is that you were TOO sure of yourselves in picking the mafia.  I got burnt the same way in my newbie game.  By that I don't mean always question yourself per se.  Directly saying "OMG YOU ARE SCUM!" is fine.

You should make your accusations and pressure on one person like you did, BUT always glance to your side at the others.  Watch for the person that just seems to be joining in just to follow someone (rather than thinking for themselves).  Watch for the person that's sitting in the sidelines.  Watch for the one that's so willing to put suspicion and talk into it but never seem to want to commit to saying "Yes, you ARE scum!" 

If you read the game with your newfound knowledge of who is who, you'll see Panda was willing to nudge you in the 'right' direction. 

Btw, Seph: your very first post was a mess of suspicion in a bottle.

Posting so I don't get randomly voted.

Has Jetsquirrel posted yet?

1. You are being defensive.  You showed, from your first post, that you dislike votes on you, even during the random voting stage. 


It's based on the concept that "townies are willing to die while mafia have too much to live for".  The more you show that you're trying to save your own hide, the more you look like a mafia that wants to keep living instead of a townie that knows they are probably going to die anyway. 

Besides, it's putting the focus on yourself.  It's best to make sure your posts are all about the ones you think are scum (or just anyone that looks suspicious, or attempting to figure out who is suspicious). 


It's an odd paradox.  To try to save yourself, you lead to your own death.

[Pandarsenic]

Can I get critique of my play by any chance?

[ToonyMan]

Can I get critique of my play by any chance?

Same.  Meh.

[Leafsnail]

C9 setup can have RBs without any town power roles.  This is so that a player cannot work anything out purely from their own existance.

[dakarian]

Ok, reading while writing:

pandasenic: You are pretty frightful as a mafia.  Right off the bat you start up the random voting stage right while a few people stumble.  That's exactly a good starting move for the mafia: look pro town while others look scummy.  Loved the name spelling banter btw: good PR (I didn't notice it was Diakron that joined in on it till just now, meh).

The vote on Diakron was dangerous though.  He was already under suspicion so joining in using the same argument is a "Follow the group" scumtell.  You then flip flop your vote, which is what you accused Diakron of doing.  The riskiest part was the "(except his partner?)".  That was a self-referencial leak.  I know I tend to bypass those things but others JUMP on that stuff. 

You got through all that because the town was focused on Diakron and wasn't looking at others.  After that, you turned back to regular scumhunting, choosing someone unsuspected and pressuring them.

Oh, also love the WIFOM you left afterwards, along with defending Seph. 

Also love the 'analysis' that basically comes down to "One of them might be scum so let's kill them both".  If I was in game as town I probably would've WOTed in support of that theory.

From there, you had the town firmly focused and tunnelvisioned on those two. 


After that, you had a lightning rod: a person you could always lean accusations on that no one would question.  Day 2 Jet was accused and, from that, the town was locked.  You plopped your vote on the 'safe bet', let the town find a second person, then turned on that person.  The town was left either hating the 'always suspicious' or the 'newly suspicious'.  So long as Major lived the town would never scumhunt and, instead, bandwagoned.  That's why day 2+3 ended so fast: no one analyzed anything.


Thus you had the game in your hand right after you accused Free Beer instead of Major.  Without anyone to derail BOTH accusations, the town had no escape. 

[dakarian]

Toonyman:

First off, to those that are new, make a note that Toony is Crazy.  Seriously!  I mean just look at his Avatar.  I don't even have to worry about him changing it, whatever it changes to will be just as crazy. 


The point?  His style is unconventional.  We had a hard time getting over it at first and, thus, kept lynching him a while back.  He's no fool though.  Mafia rely on using well-designed 'fake town' acting to survive.  That's hard to do when someone is unconventional, since you have to improvise your reaction, which can lead to giving off more than you plan to.

Point to all that: Don't stop being crazy.

What I WILL say though is that you need to be more active and aggressive.  You went after Jetsquirrel in Day 2 but, in truth, that SHOULD'VE been in Day 1.  If you pushed then it would've helped to keep the town from getting tunnelvisioned into the Major/Free debate.  By the time you brought it out, your debate was used to create the Major/Jetsquirrel debate. 

Oh, and when "you're defending yourself the wrong way" comes to your mind, that's the time to think "what if someone is setting him up".  He was defending himself poorly but lynching should NOT be used to punish poor defense.  Once you suspect that he might be a townie that can't defend properly, you've put a HUGE wrench in your own argument.  That's when you first ask "if he was a townie that plays that badly, would the rest of what he did make sense" and "he's VERY obvious.. is there a scum around that's abusing that?"

After Day 2, you had no target to focus on, and you didn't bite into the Major_Sephiroth apple.  That meant you would probably start scumhunting.  That's why you didn't survive to Day 3.

[dakarian]

Major_Sephiroth

I can say this right now before reading:  You were used by the mafia.

You planted suspicion on yourself and proved that you were a defensive player right from the gate.  That, along with the comments that sound like you are hiding information led to the initial susipicion on you.  The mafia took that and used you as a lightning rod.  Notice that every day they accused you, but then pulled off to bandwagon someone else.  You were their 'safe bet'.  They could point to your actions, say "he looks bad" then pull off you and expect you to join in with them.  Notice that Day 1 and 3 had BOTH mafias and you on the same person. 

Once fully established, it's HARD to break from it.  It usually takes someone else to go and derail the debate long enough for you to be able to get back to the attack.  Thus the best place to analyze is early in in Day 1, before you were held for hostage.


As I said earlier: you want to avoid having to put attention to yourself as much as possible.  Don't take up a defensive stance, no matter how much you dislike suspicion on you.  No matter how much you don't like random votes on you, endure it because ANY attempt you will make to stop it will put a TON of suspicion on you.  Random Votes fade away all on their own.  Just ignore them and get to the aggression.  The sooner you pretend the random votes on you didn't happen, the faster they fly away once real suspicion kicks in. 

@Aimed at everyone here, not just Major
Another matter: question dodging.  I'll be blunt

Never.
EVER.
DO IT

Answer EVERY question given to you.  Even if it's silly.  Even if it's obvious.  Even if you know they will use your answer to accuse you more.  ANSWER IT! 

You have a reason for every move that you do.  As town, you MUST be prepared to give those reasons.  Don't say "I have my reasons".  Don't go "I don't want to say them now."  Don't dump accusations on the questioner.  Just answer.

The question is one of the most powerful tools town has against the mafia.  It's like shaking a fruit tree: do it right and SOMETHING will come out.  Townies will answer in a way that makes them look town.  Mafia will eventually say something that ruins their 'pretend town' status.  Perhaps at the time of asking, it's not clear, but trust me, later on you'll look back and realize "wait a minute.. that smells like MAFIA!" and bag a scum.

Thus trying to mess up a questioner is not much different from posting "Oh yah.  I bet you die tonight!" 

Are there times when a town CAN dodge the question?  Perhaps, but those are rare.  Just know that you just heaped a whole truck load of suspicion on you by doing so and be ready to either spend half the day digging yourself out of it or getting lynched.

Ok, back to the Seph analysis



You said earlier that 'being aggressive is bad'.  I'll be blunt here too, Slap the person that told you that.

Townies MUST be aggressive because that's the only way they can win.  Remember that it's your vote and the lynch that wins for the town.  The mafia can sit back, hide, and kill at night safely.  As such, aggression is actually a Town tell.  Yes, some people try to lynch for that but, if you notice, they tend to be the ones who regularly lynch the strongest townies, leaving the rest of the town weak to the mafia's influence. 

To put it another way, chances are the person pointing the finger saying "OMG SCUM!" is town while the person whispering in their ear saying "he looks bad" is mafia. 


Your attack on Free Beer was strong though.


As for Day 2 and 3, you were lightning rodded so meh.  I CAN show something that, in the future, you should watch for.

Pandasenic started the day voting for you, then not long after voted for someone else.

That's inconsistent.  If he thought you were mafia ALL THIS TIME, why would he pull his vote off of you to go after someone else?  What are you, some "reserve mafia"?  The second you think someone is mafia, you don't let up, even if you know there's a second one out there.  You can still debate and accuse others, but he didn't even speak about you once his vote was pulled to another. 

If you see that again, call them on it.  Ask "So you don't think I'm mafia anymore?"  If they say "I do but this person looks worse" then tear them apart!  If they think you are mafia then they are letting the mafia go to attack someone else.  That they 'look worse' isn't good enough.  They can't "put one mafia to the side to find another".  What a Townie SHOULD do is kill the one in front of them THEN attack another. 

If they say "Yah, you are" then vote for you, it's a flip flop.  Demand their full set of reasons for accusing you.  If they complain (i..e "I already said it, go read my past posts"), that's a Question Dodge, turn on them for attempting to be lazy.  If they pull off, keep on them.  If they present their reasons-that's the most Townish response they can give you- then debate the reasons and explain why you did what you did. 

If they say "you seem fine to me now" then let them be but remember it.  If they try for you again throw it back in their face.  At worst you'll kill the argument there.  At best you'll make them snap and you'll start seeing the Scum behind the accusation.

Townies that accuse you have reasons that seem solid to them.  Mafia KNOWS you are town and, thus, never have any reason that they truly believe in.  Thus the person with solid reasoning why you should die is someone you need to convince and reason with.  The person with poor reasoning needs to be debated and shown why they are bad evidence and why other evidence looks better.  The folks with reasoning, reasoning that contradicts, or reasoning that constantly changes deserve the Noose.

[dakarian]

#*$)(% a WOT for each person takes a while.  I'll do the others later.  For now, I'll try to make a QUICK thing on dealing with votes on yourself.

When a random vote is put on you, ignore it or just have fun with it.  Don't take it seriously and don't act on it if you don't want people to suspect you.  Random vote is like a game of Stare: first to flinch loses.

If you flinch, expect suspicion.  It's not the end of the world, though.


If someone questions you, answer their question fully.  You can throw a question yourself but avoid accusations.  Questions are a Good Thing for town so punishing people for it by bearing down on them isn't helpful, even if the questions are against you.

If someone accuses you, especially with a vote, explain your side of it.  Remember that, chances are, it's a townie that's scumhunting.  They don't know you're town and are just looking for odd behavior.  Just make it clear that what you are doing isn't odd "no, saying "It's not odd" doesn't work.  ".  Either they will bring new issues up or fade away.  If the former, just keep at it till all issues are taken care of.

However, don't let it derail you from your own questioning/accusations.  You should be able to answer someone else's question WHILE listening to someone else's answer to your question. 


If people are voting for you with either no reason or for someone else's reason poke at them for it.  Don't let a person mindlessly vote for you.  Even if each person doesn't have their own reasons, they should, at least, look as if they did the research themselves and are not just following someone.  Meanwhile, keep addressing any issues brought up.  Feel free to, at times, ask for a clear "Why do you think I'm scum" post. 

Don't consider people defending you as 'automatic town'.  Remember, Townies don't know who you are.  Mafia KNOW you are town.  If someone seems to be mindlessly defending you, that's NOT a good thing.


Lastly, if it's clear you will be lynched, before the day ends, do a deep look at each of the players.  NOW is the time to forget the debate on you and look.. really look at everyone.  Scum tend to get eager when someone is about to die and start to act scummy.  Some mysteriously hide.  Others push with horrible logic.  Some defend you with horrible or no good reason.  Call it out, put out everything you see.  Get the word out NOW!  Don't focus on the ones attacking you.  Focus on EVERYONE. 

Will it save you?  No.  However, once you die, everything you say will be given the green light since they will know you aren't scum.  Statements that got the "he's saying that because he's scum" get cleared as being honest.  The #1 best thing out there is if you die Day 1 and, because of your posts, the scum die with you day 2 and 3. 

Sometimes it pays to take one for the team..

[Eduren]

Will it save you?  No.  However, once you die, everything you say will be given the green light since they will know you aren't scum.  Statements that got the "he's saying that because he's scum" get cleared as being honest.  The #1 best thing out there is if you die Day 1 and, because of your posts, the scum die with you day 2 and 3. 

This is good advice, but you should remember that even Townies can be wrong and just because he was proven innocent does not mean that he was proven right. While yes his points may be more valid, that does not mean that you should insta-lynch his enemies.