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[evirus]

this needs to be handled both in terms of AI/Word Gen as well as from the player perspective.

AI/World Gen: the tech progression of the different factions as the world is "aged", i think, should follow a basic formula with a few possible divergences, like maybe elves being slightly more advanced in one game, while in another the dwarfs may have the edge.

Player Perspective: so far as how the player would progress technologically, even from year zero, i think a slightly unique system is needed. i thought about this before, the fact that simply devoting "research points" or resources towards a specific goal is unrealistic for some things. the "strange moods" in DF are a little bit better for some "tech projects" but a little to extreme in the consequences in not providing the materials necessary. I'd suggest an "achievement+investment" system for tech progression, especially in the earlier years. In order to unlock a technology you must have experience with the precursors, for example its unlikely for a creature to learn about benefits of firing clay, or cooking food, without spending some time around fires. after that the progression down that "tech path" could be a matter of either study(leading to "strange mood" like moments of inspiration) or experimentation (further achievements) or both.

[ArkDelgato]

Since people seem touchy about not having steel whenever they want, why not have advancement bring about an alloy that is lighter and stronger than steel that can be advanced to?

[evirus]

Since people seem touchy about not having steel whenever they want, why not have advancement bring about an alloy that is lighter and stronger than steel that can be advanced to?

i think that investment(studying previously gained knowledge) would be more realistic for improving something beyond it's normal condition, like studying the nature a specific metal, say copper, to more efficiently make weapons which, in the end, would be lighter and stronger than the weapons made by a dwarf just learning about the metal.

i suppose books or some education jobs would be needed for the investments portion if its going to be on a per-dwarf basis.

[TauQuebb]

You could attempt this soft of thing with a tech tree based on tools, each workshop requiring different tools to do different jobs, you cant really make a *statue* without a good set of chisels and hammers assigned to the workshop.

This could limit your production of steel too, if you want it, a blast furnace would be required, as a crucible and pile of coal just does not do the job. I am really trying to switch the tech tree from time-based, to something the player can concentrate on, order in a set of blueprints or the the tools required perhapse.

Not sure if this would give you the sort of tech tree you would like, but the idea is to start with only the tools that fit in your wagon and to replace them to unlock new options, perhapse even degredation with time.

[DWeird]

Well, if we're talking specifically about world-gen techs (I think having to advance tech in your fortress would likely be boring and irritating), I think the best way to go ahead with this is having every race in question have a list of techs they will always, always get no matter what, and a list of random techs they may or may not get (from gods or special people, or via trade, war, theft from other races).

Times when races receive their core techs would be randomized to some extent - so the question will not be "do dwarves get steel?", it will be "do dwarves get steel before elves get bows?". Depending which race gets the relative advantage first, you could end up looking at very different worlds – elf dominatetd or dwarf dominated.

And the random techs would have some chance to pop up, but wouldn‘t always. In fact, these should be upgrades that aren‘t really necessary for „fortress“ play, and would have an effect mostly in worldgen. They‘d produce non game-breaking little changes – increase a race‘s longevity somewhat, their reproduction rate, and ability to spread to biomes, or straightforward battle-prowess.. Say, elves could get poison, making them more formidabble in worldgen battles. Dwarves could get magma aqeuaducs that would allow them to build in freezing biomes if they can be connected to existing dwarven cities. Humans could get better housing, or healers or something, that would make them live longer.

There could be also random achievements of the sort the Civilisation „Wonders“ type – a single building that gives some sort of effect and is placed in a specific city. Pyramids, Gardens, Palaces, Dungeons, some sort of collossal statues... They‘d essentially be pre-constructed and placed in a city somewhere. Isn‘t really up with the „procedurally generated“ mantra, but I‘d take a person-crafted megalith over one cobbled by a program anyday. One way or another... some special cities definitelly need some kind of landmarks that would make them different from every other other city.

All this would make worlds more varied without depriving players from any core gameplay tools.

[Andeerz]

DWeird nails a lot of things on the head that I've been thinking about.  I largely agree with this suggestion.

In my opinion (keep in mind I'm no historian or anthropologist) DWeird's suggestions would fit well with a model of technological progression akin to that of human civilizations as far as I understand it.  I've been looking a tad more into the histories of various technologies, particularly those dealing with warfare-related technologies.  From my forays into the subject matter, I have come to the conclusion that the development and implementation of technologies is not quite as much a matter of some serendipitous "aha!" moment that happens at a lab, forge, bakery, apothecary, or what-have-you (though those are still very important!!!) but more of a matter of economic development.  In other words, the existence of the economic foundation required to implement a technology is what I believe to be the biggest determinant in the appearance of any technology throughout human history, and should be the case in dwarven/elven/gobbo/etc. histories.

A great example of this is steel, something I see that people are very keen on dwarves having access to.  Steely irons have been known about and made since iron was able to be worked, which is a daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarn long time (since around 2000BC or thereabouts...).  However, consistently making steel is something that took a while to develop.  It wasn't a lack of knowledge of the existence of steel; blacksmiths since time immemorial knew that introducing a carbon source to a good, pure iron led to a higher quality iron (i.e. steel).  The largest limitation to making steel was having the infrastructure to do it: control of mines and ore deposits, presence of bloomeries, good roads, government, etc.  That's not to say that the advent of such devices as the Catalan forge and other devices capable of smelting steel efficiently weren't important, but these are small potatoes compared to the afore-mentioned limitations.  Think about this as well; before they fell, the Romans could mass-produce steely irons of decent-enough quality for their huge armies on a scale not again attained until the late middle-ages centuries after their fall.  People didn't forget the processes involved, at least I don't think so given some metallurgical and historical treatises I've read.  What happened is that the infrastructure of the Romans disintegrated and with it the means to implement the technologies already discovered.  Tools broke down faster than they could be replaced.  This goes for other technologies besides steel, such as sanitation, construction, medicine, etc.  I hope I'm making sense. 

And if anyone thinks this example is bull-crap, feel free to call me out on it.  I won't get butt-hurt or start some dumb flame-war.    I realize that there are a lot of things I've mentioned and will mention that can be torn apart because I am not taking the time to cite sources and I am writing this on the fly without as much careful thought as I would put in a publication.  This is all just food for thought.  Anyways...

So, basically, I feel DWeird's idea fits my examples nicely.  Most ideas are already there or are quickly thought of in beginning of dwarven civilization in a generated DF civ.  What are also present are the basic tools needed to eventually make better tools/economies/infrastructure, and, with those, even better tools/economies/infrastructure.  So, basically, as civilizational economies and infrastructures increase in capacity, certain technologies become feasible to implement on a civilizational scale.  Along the way, certain ideas come to some possessed/fey-mood/whatever dwarfs and they develop something like a novel concrete mixture or the afore-mentioned Catalan forge or whatnot. 

So, yeah, no active tech research in the sense of selecting something from some sort of list.  Techs largely arise through economic development...  something DF can do awesomely and already does on a tiny scale within the fortress (i.e. building a wood burner and smelter before being able to get a metal-works in order).

I guess I can conclude from these musings that the biggest thing that needs to happen in DF in order for suggestions like mine and DWeird's to come into fruition is the implementation of a true supply-and-demand model in DF.

Ok... I'm done for now.     

[PsyberianHusky]

I am very iffy on this one, I do see how this concept of progression over time would be cool, however unless it is procedurally generated very well its just gonna end up being a limit because there is going to be a ceiling point to the technological development, because whats going to happen, are your dwarves gonna reach the year 3000 and have guns made of robotic nano carp that can disintegrate anything ?  We have to keep in mind that dwarf fortress is a fantasy game, As an anthropologist I can tell you that the development of technology was a clunky and awkward process(Mostly because we can only guess about it.) However dwarfs did not evolve they just kinnda spawned at the begging of time.
Along everything else.

What I am trying to say is the necessity for dwarfs to progress is different then real life humans, I just don't see tech level as being an element that fits into a world of magic, and in terms of a game play mechanic I would just find it annoying.

Now what would be is the innovation of artifacts wish special procedurally generated elements that could be reproduced after they are created, maybe Urist Mcthisgagisusedwaytoooftenbutitisstillfunny will get into a special kind of mood go into his workshop and invent a Crossbow/pickaxe and from that point on crossbow pickaxes could be produced by dwarfs that have some sort of cultural tag that gives them knowledge of such a device, and if said dwarf leaves the fort such a device may become common place in the world.
Heck you could even create devices that help trades that do not normal have items associated with them, such as a tool for soapmakers.

Long answer short:
Technology is a great idea so long as it adds to the game and does not limit it.

[darkflagrance]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

DWeird nails a lot of things on the head that I've been thinking about.  I largely agree with this suggestion.

In my opinion (keep in mind I'm no historian or anthropologist) DWeird's suggestions would fit well with a model of technological progression akin to that of human civilizations as far as I understand it.  I've been looking a tad more into the histories of various technologies, particularly those dealing with warfare-related technologies.  From my forays into the subject matter, I have come to the conclusion that the development and implementation of technologies is not quite as much a matter of some serendipitous "aha!" moment that happens at a lab, forge, bakery, apothecary, or what-have-you (though those are still very important!!!) but more of a matter of economic development.  In other words, the existence of the economic foundation required to implement a technology is what I believe to be the biggest determinant in the appearance of any technology throughout human history, and should be the case in dwarven/elven/gobbo/etc. histories.

A great example of this is steel, something I see that people are very keen on dwarves having access to.  Steely irons have been known about and made since iron was able to be worked, which is a daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarn long time (since around 2000BC or thereabouts...).  However, consistently making steel is something that took a while to develop.  It wasn't a lack of knowledge of the existence of steel; blacksmiths since time immemorial knew that introducing a carbon source to a good, pure iron led to a higher quality iron (i.e. steel).  The largest limitation to making steel was having the infrastructure to do it: control of mines and ore deposits, presence of bloomeries, good roads, government, etc.  That's not to say that the advent of such devices as the Catalan forge and other devices capable of smelting steel efficiently weren't important, but these are small potatoes compared to the afore-mentioned limitations.  Think about this as well; before they fell, the Romans could mass-produce steely irons of decent-enough quality for their huge armies on a scale not again attained until the late middle-ages centuries after their fall.  People didn't forget the processes involved, at least I don't think so given some metallurgical and historical treatises I've read.  What happened is that the infrastructure of the Romans disintegrated and with it the means to implement the technologies already discovered.  Tools broke down faster than they could be replaced.  This goes for other technologies besides steel, such as sanitation, construction, medicine, etc.  I hope I'm making sense. 

And if anyone thinks this example is bull-crap, feel free to call me out on it.  I won't get butt-hurt or start some dumb flame-war.    I realize that there are a lot of things I've mentioned and will mention that can be torn apart because I am not taking the time to cite sources and I am writing this on the fly without as much careful thought as I would put in a publication.  This is all just food for thought.  Anyways...

So, basically, I feel DWeird's idea fits my examples nicely.  Most ideas are already there or are quickly thought of in beginning of dwarven civilization in a generated DF civ.  What are also present are the basic tools needed to eventually make better tools/economies/infrastructure, and, with those, even better tools/economies/infrastructure.  So, basically, as civilizational economies and infrastructures increase in capacity, certain technologies become feasible to implement on a civilizational scale.  Along the way, certain ideas come to some possessed/fey-mood/whatever dwarfs and they develop something like a novel concrete mixture or the afore-mentioned Catalan forge or whatnot. 

So, yeah, no active tech research in the sense of selecting something from some sort of list.  Techs largely arise through economic development...  something DF can do awesomely and already does on a tiny scale within the fortress (i.e. building a wood burner and smelter before being able to get a metal-works in order).

I guess I can conclude from these musings that the biggest thing that needs to happen in DF in order for suggestions like mine and DWeird's to come into fruition is the implementation of a true supply-and-demand model in DF.

Ok... I'm done for now.     

I agree with you - in fact, the current model of technology we have in DF does conform to this model. You got magma? You got iron and trees and flux? Or you have the access to trade to buy it? You have the resources and economic ability to make steel.

The real problem I have with the idea of a technological tree or a conception of technological levels is that it feels too hackish; it doesn't really simulate the way technology works in the real world. I'm fine with tech trees for RPGs, where technology functions as a balancing mechanic to make the game more fun, but in Dwarf Fortress to sacrifice some sandboxy freedom for the ability to badly simulate some real world event doesn't feel like an adequate trade-off.

However, it is likely that in the future, should any concept of technological development be added, there will also be ways to make "ancient" civs, such as Atlantis, which start from year 0 with "maximum tech level." If so, it should be easy enough to give whatever tag allows them to do that to other civs to essentially remove the effect of technological levels from the game, should one consider it unfun.

[Safe-Keeper]

Agree with those who say there should be no research in-game, but starting in an earlier age with different technologies and things to build would be interesting if implemented well. As someone else said, starting up in the mythic age with bone and wood weapons (and perhaps iron/copper/bronze) and different solutions to various problems would be very interesting.

I wouldn't rank it high on my priority list, though, as it'd probably take a huge amount of research and actual work to basically re-make DF in a different setting.

[Kilo24]

It still seems really problematic.  Most fantasy worlds are characterized by being freakish medieval mashups that stay in one period of technological development for all eternity.  That lack of inertia is something Toady will have to overcome in fleshing out his fantasy lore.

The main issue that I see is the difficulty of making every period of technological development decently fun and varied.  Playing Dwarf Fortress without having metal picks to dig with would require a lot of rebalancing to be fun, and so would playing it without mechanisms or farming.  And as for progressing forward in technology, it will still be difficult to integrate new technological elements into DF in a manner which makes them useful but not critically useful for every fortress to have that also is simpler to do than the host of other things he's already adding to the game.  And the interface is already cluttered enough and the learning curve is already steep enough without adding the variety of technologically dependent items or professions that changing levels of technology entails.

I do think this is a good goal, but IMO it shouldn't be in until post 1.0.  Toady has a great deal of stuff to add that would enhance every fortress still, rather than diversifying some fortresses.  It's not in keeping with the theme of most fantasy worlds that seem to be the inspiration for Dwarf Fortress and is hard to implement well.  He'd have to address each balance issue separately for each stage of technological development to keep the game fun, and he still has many other unresolved ones in the current game before he multiplies them.  There's still a lot of stuff which is easier to do but more beneficial to most fortresses as a whole.

[Neonivek]

Most fantasy worlds are characterized by being freakish medieval mashups that stay in one period of technological development for all eternity

Not exactly, usually the technology is either greater or less then that of the past in most fantasy settings.

Lord of the Rings would be less
Exalted would be less (and more in the underworld)
Final Fantasy is usually less (Except in 7 and 9 where it is more)
Final Fantasy Tactics is less
Suikoden is in an odd possition but overall it is less but sizable technological gains have been made.
Fable is less but Fable 2 has the technology levels between past and present merge.
Warcraft has a drastically increasing technology rate
Starcraft is less (The Terran are less advanced then earth, The Protoss are less advanced then their makers, and the Zergs are pretty stable but still less advanced then their makers)

Technology just rarely advances significantly within a running setting or advances very slowly.

[Silverionmox]

Technological change doesn't seem appropriate in adventurer or fortress mode. Kingdom mode could benefit from it, but as a background phenomenon and not as the centerpiece of the game like in Civilization. It's something that happens to entities anyway rather than specific places or persons. The individual inventor doing groundbreaking stuff in his garden shed is the exception rather than the rule.
And of course there ought to be tech evolution rather than guaranteed growth: losing technology ought to be possible as well. History offers plenty of examples: lack of useful applications (the wheel in the Andes), loss of trade opportunities (fall of the Roman Empire), by royal decree (China breaking down its seaworthy fleet), out of moral concerns (Japan banning firearms because shooting a samurai is dishonourable), etc.

[Neonivek]

The major reason for technological change either in Tiers (Group Nomads, Tribes, Early Bronze) or with individual technologies is allowing the non-main races to step up to the plate or to have the main races reduce.

Though what in the world triggers there could be for this I do not know. I guess it would have to see if a civilisation is prospering or struggling and add a chance based on intelligence of this happening as well as seeing if the civilisation even wants to change either due to traditionalism or moral aversion.

[Andeerz]

PsyberianHusky, I agree with your long-answer-short but disagree with your statement saying that the necessity for dwarfs to progress is different than real life humans within the context of this game.  The same basic needs and desires are present (food, killing efficiently, mining, fun, etc.), and the means to achieve these needs and desires (technology) could develop within the game in a non-hackish, enriching, and somewhat realistic way.  It wouldn't really start out from zero, as, like you said, dwarfs just spawn and don't evolve from scratch.  However, it would be akin in many respects to Europe after the collapse of the Roman empire or Persia following the collapse of its empire.  You have previous knowledge which doesn't start from zero.  What does start from near-zero is the economy as there are few settlements, roads, mines, etc. 

And, Neonivek, therein lies the world trigger in a sense.  As the economies of civilizations develop and knowledge spreads, this development will trigger the availability of technologies passively as the ability to implement technologies will come to fruition.  Perhaps a few key pieces of new knowledge could be conceived by some civs at different times in the way that PsyberianHusky said through semi-random innovation...

Also to Kilo24 and Safe-keeper.  I don't think there really needs to be much done in order to implement an idea of technological progression other than what Toady is trying to do anyway.  With the implementation of Toady's supply and demand arc, knowledge-spread arc (or whatever it's called) and perhaps making certain economic activities a bit better approximated to the time and resource requirements of the real-life ones, I think tech progression would come as an emergent phenomenon.  It would not be a phenomenon readily observable within adventure mode and likely not in the time scale of fortress mode, but it would be something that would play in to the world gen to be sure and through this affect all game modes.  Basically, what I'm saying is that there would be no tech system like that of Civ4 or any other game where there is some game construct/mechanic that would be prone to metagaming where the path of tech progression would be actively chosen.  I hope I'm making sense here.  Tech would appear fluidly as a result of the course of history of the DF world, without it having to be scripted for the most part.  The player would only have a hand in tech progression through the player's influences on DF history, whether in adventure mode, fortress mode, or other modes.  The only scripted elements would be the kind of technologies ultimately possible and maybe a large chunk of initial knowledge bases of given races at the beginning of world gen.  Perhaps at a later date I could give an example of what I mean and how I think this tech progression suggestion would play out in a game.  I think it's more simple than any of us are making it sound...     

Silverionmox, I like what you say about loss of technology.  But I'd like to stress that technology is not necessarily lost in the sense of forgetting things (and I'm not saying that this is what you said, Silver).  It's lost in the sense of breaking tools faster than being able to replace them or lack of reason to implement them.  For example, in the Andes, people there sure as heck had the wheel and understood its uses and importance.  It's just that use in wagons and transportation and the like were useless given the mountainous terrain.  With the Romans, it was economic collapse that caused loss of things like steel production, sanitation, and the like which took centuries to re-establish.

Ok... I'm done for now.  Again.

[Andeerz]

Ok... for shits and giggles I will give a pseudo-game-example of what I meant in the last post...

Iron working

Economic requirements for iron working
   Fuel source:
      Fuel harvesting (coal mining, wood farming, etc)
      Fuel processing   (coal refinement, wood burning, etc)
         oxygen for coal refinement(bellows/wind tunnel or something)
      Transport of fuel
      Coal and wood transport

   Iron ore:
      ore mining
      ore processing at bloomery
         requires skilled labor
         fuel source (same reqirements as above)
         bloomery with power source (windmill, water wheel)
                        oxygen source for heat (bellows or wind tunnel)
      Fuel transport
      Ore transport

   Skilled labor:
      metalworker (make sheets for armor, ingots for other things, possible wire for maille)
      bloomery worker (runs the bellows, etc.)
      wood harvesters and burners

   Hammers, tools, anvils and the like (well, maybe the tools and hammers can just be assumed to exist like they are now...)

   Building materials for facilities

All of these need to be in place in some way or another in order for iron working tech to be fully realized in a civilization.  They don't all need to be in place in the same fortress.

Here's a scenario as I think it would be after the trade arc is finalized and world gen gets some of its intended changes:

At the start of world gen, infrastructure is pretty much non-existent.  Mining and the lumber industry have not yet started in dwarven society.  The focus of dwarven society at this point is establishing means to obtain food (agriculture and animal husbandry), settlements, etc.  As this develops after several game years or decades or whatever, government develops and some sort of social hierarchy is established.  Because of ready availability of food and other necessities, dwarves not involved in these basic industries are free to pursue other vocations and find ways to improve existing ones.  A few more game years pass: the lumber industry gets going, wood becomes readily available for construction, burning for fuel, etc.  Ore deposits are discovered and some settlements and forts are realized as iron ore sources.  Roads are better developed, enhancing trade, thus allowing iron ore, wood, and coal to make its way to other places.  In places with access to all three plus people available for work, bloomeries can be made.  The iron ore can be processed at these locations, and these locations become a source of iron metal.  Workers can make this into plates and bars for use in other economic activities like forging weapons and armor.  These raw materials are traded to places that demand them.  The places that obtain these raw materials then use them for their needs.  The places that obtain them will have to have forges to utilize the iron metals.  When this happens, iron implements can be made and the benefits of the iron working technology are finally realized. I believe (and I'm no anthropologist, so I could be wrong) the first things iron metal would be used for is weapons and tools first, followed very soon by armour.

All in all this may take quite a while to come into place.  So, if you start a fort at say year 50, you may have limited access to iron in its workable form, as well as wood and coal unless everything is already available at your fortress site.  Even then, you will need to have the dwarf-power, and appropriate infrastructure available to do it.  Also, starting in this year, you would likely not find extensive use of iron throughout the world.  Any iron implements you do come across would likely be small weapons, like spear heads.  As more becomes available for armor, armor you do come across would likely predominantly be helms, followed by maille or simple plate defenses for the body (more likely maille...).  I say this because those are the two most vital areas and therefore would be armored first out of necessity.

This would be a rough approximation of tech progression in game and would mimic sort of how things happened in reality as I understand history.  Perhaps it would happen over a very short period of time, though, since the resource requirements of things like the metal industry as they are now in DF are, I think, rather inaccurate.  But it is that which would have to be changed if better realism is desired.  And that wouldn't be too much of a stretch to do at all.

See?  Tech progression wouldn't be too complicated at all, would enrich the game, and wouldn't introduce any undue challenges.  You want more tech?  Start at a later year.  Want less?  Start earlier.  What y'all think?