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[Pjoo]

no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

Yep. The way I see it, dwarves are great manufacturers and engineers, but they really don't seem to record any scientific progress, which would kinda be required for advanced physics and things like electricity and steam engines.

Are you saying that it shouldn't be in because it's not in?

Evolving tech levels shouldn't be in cause well, their science doesn't really advance as the things aren't written up(Well, I haven't never seen E=MC^2 in the engravings, neither I've seen any paper being produced). Dwarves are kinda like Romans in that way, good engineering, some innovations, but not much scientific progress. I think it could be blamed on the alcohol also!

Ever heard of the aquaduct, many medical and surgical tools, the cesarean section, fast drying cement, reinforced concrete, the military camp/military construction procedures (such as Ceasar's bridge across the Rhine), the grid system of city planning, the professional army (not sure on this one, but they certainly developed it (particularly Marius)), much of many modern legal systems, satire, &, etc., NB, PS, Curriculum Vitae, Senator, Republic, Plebeian, Prefect, President, Legal, Penal, Judge, Judicial etc., the Julian Calendar, the seven day week, Christmas, Christianity, door locks, pedestrianised areas, the pavement, the census, central heating, the apartment block, the public newspaper, the sock, a variety of trumpets, the umbrella, the public toilet, various cosmetics, candles (edible ones), the mangle, scissors, the magnifying glass, different left and right shoes, the bikini, the shower, the public spa, pool, gym, library etc., the postal system or street lighting? They were all Roman inventions. Do you think that those who developed the wheel or other such developments wrote it down? It is quite possible for science such as metalworking to advance without writing.

Yeah, I've heard of those. All Roman inventions, but those are inventions based on science, they are not itself science. Engineers etc. use science to invent things, and researchers update and research science. Scientific theories alone aren't really practical, but can be used to create solutions to problems and innovations. Innovations usually pass on to new generations without being written in down, but if quantum physics are not written down, they are lost quite fast without any proper scientific education. And having paper actually helps there too.
Romans didn't really create physics theories, they didn't come up with many new mathematical formulas, chemistry was unknown and philosophy was thing for slackers. They were good engineers, thus the cement, aquaduct, concrete,construction, scissors... These are technological advancements, but they aren't science.
Most science Romans did was social sciences - education, law, politics, management...

Most of the greatest dwarf inventions, such as drowning chamber and mist machine are created by the "engineering skill" of the player. I think limiting choices for the player would be a bad thing, as currently it already is limited by player's "engineering skills"(and science skill! Lava doesn't generate pressure upwards).

[blue sam3]

no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

Yep. The way I see it, dwarves are great manufacturers and engineers, but they really don't seem to record any scientific progress, which would kinda be required for advanced physics and things like electricity and steam engines.

Are you saying that it shouldn't be in because it's not in?

Evolving tech levels shouldn't be in cause well, their science doesn't really advance as the things aren't written up(Well, I haven't never seen E=MC^2 in the engravings, neither I've seen any paper being produced). Dwarves are kinda like Romans in that way, good engineering, some innovations, but not much scientific progress. I think it could be blamed on the alcohol also!

Ever heard of the aquaduct, many medical and surgical tools, the cesarean section, fast drying cement, reinforced concrete, the military camp/military construction procedures (such as Ceasar's bridge across the Rhine), the grid system of city planning, the professional army (not sure on this one, but they certainly developed it (particularly Marius)), much of many modern legal systems, satire, &, etc., NB, PS, Curriculum Vitae, Senator, Republic, Plebeian, Prefect, President, Legal, Penal, Judge, Judicial etc., the Julian Calendar, the seven day week, Christmas, Christianity, door locks, pedestrianised areas, the pavement, the census, central heating, the apartment block, the public newspaper, the sock, a variety of trumpets, the umbrella, the public toilet, various cosmetics, candles (edible ones), the mangle, scissors, the magnifying glass, different left and right shoes, the bikini, the shower, the public spa, pool, gym, library etc., the postal system or street lighting? They were all Roman inventions. Do you think that those who developed the wheel or other such developments wrote it down? It is quite possible for science such as metalworking to advance without writing.

Yeah, I've heard of those. All Roman inventions, but those are inventions based on science, they are not itself science. Engineers etc. use science to invent things, and researchers update and research science. Scientific theories alone aren't really practical, but can be used to create solutions to problems and innovations. Innovations usually pass on to new generations without being written in down, but if quantum physics are not written down, they are lost quite fast without any proper scientific education. And having paper actually helps there too.
Romans didn't really create physics theories, they didn't come up with many new mathematical formulas, chemistry was unknown and philosophy was thing for slackers. They were good engineers, thus the cement, aquaduct, concrete,construction, scissors... These are technological advancements, but they aren't science.
Most science Romans did was social sciences - education, law, politics, management...

Most of the greatest dwarf inventions, such as drowning chamber and mist machine are created by the "engineering skill" of the player. I think limiting choices for the player would be a bad thing, as currently it already is limited by player's "engineering skills"(and science skill! Lava doesn't generate pressure upwards).

But things such as new, stronger metals are practical, and that is largely what we are talking about here.

[Twiggie]

no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

Yep. The way I see it, dwarves are great manufacturers and engineers, but they really don't seem to record any scientific progress, which would kinda be required for advanced physics and things like electricity and steam engines.

Are you saying that it shouldn't be in because it's not in?

Evolving tech levels shouldn't be in cause well, their science doesn't really advance as the things aren't written up(Well, I haven't never seen E=MC^2 in the engravings, neither I've seen any paper being produced). Dwarves are kinda like Romans in that way, good engineering, some innovations, but not much scientific progress. I think it could be blamed on the alcohol also!

ive got nothing to say, just thought id advance the pyramid of doom
Ever heard of the aquaduct, many medical and surgical tools, the cesarean section, fast drying cement, reinforced concrete, the military camp/military construction procedures (such as Ceasar's bridge across the Rhine), the grid system of city planning, the professional army (not sure on this one, but they certainly developed it (particularly Marius)), much of many modern legal systems, satire, &, etc., NB, PS, Curriculum Vitae, Senator, Republic, Plebeian, Prefect, President, Legal, Penal, Judge, Judicial etc., the Julian Calendar, the seven day week, Christmas, Christianity, door locks, pedestrianised areas, the pavement, the census, central heating, the apartment block, the public newspaper, the sock, a variety of trumpets, the umbrella, the public toilet, various cosmetics, candles (edible ones), the mangle, scissors, the magnifying glass, different left and right shoes, the bikini, the shower, the public spa, pool, gym, library etc., the postal system or street lighting? They were all Roman inventions. Do you think that those who developed the wheel or other such developments wrote it down? It is quite possible for science such as metalworking to advance without writing.

Yeah, I've heard of those. All Roman inventions, but those are inventions based on science, they are not itself science. Engineers etc. use science to invent things, and researchers update and research science. Scientific theories alone aren't really practical, but can be used to create solutions to problems and innovations. Innovations usually pass on to new generations without being written in down, but if quantum physics are not written down, they are lost quite fast without any proper scientific education. And having paper actually helps there too.
Romans didn't really create physics theories, they didn't come up with many new mathematical formulas, chemistry was unknown and philosophy was thing for slackers. They were good engineers, thus the cement, aquaduct, concrete,construction, scissors... These are technological advancements, but they aren't science.
Most science Romans did was social sciences - education, law, politics, management...

Most of the greatest dwarf inventions, such as drowning chamber and mist machine are created by the "engineering skill" of the player. I think limiting choices for the player would be a bad thing, as currently it already is limited by player's "engineering skills"(and science skill! Lava doesn't generate pressure upwards).

But things such as new, stronger metals are practical, and that is largely what we are talking about here.

[blah28722]

no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

Yep. The way I see it, dwarves are great manufacturers and engineers, but they really don't seem to record any scientific progress, which would kinda be required for advanced physics and things like electricity and steam engines.

Are you saying that it shouldn't be in because it's not in?

Evolving tech levels shouldn't be in cause well, their science doesn't really advance as the things aren't written up(Well, I haven't never seen E=MC^2 in the engravings, neither I've seen any paper being produced). Dwarves are kinda like Romans in that way, good engineering, some innovations, but not much scientific progress. I think it could be blamed on the alcohol also!

ive got nothing to say, just thought id advance the pyramid of doom
Ever heard of the aquaduct, many medical and surgical tools, the cesarean section, fast drying cement, reinforced concrete, the military camp/military construction procedures (such as Ceasar's bridge across the Rhine), the grid system of city planning, the professional army (not sure on this one, but they certainly developed it (particularly Marius)), much of many modern legal systems, satire, &, etc., NB, PS, Curriculum Vitae, Senator, Republic, Plebeian, Prefect, President, Legal, Penal, Judge, Judicial etc., the Julian Calendar, the seven day week, Christmas, Christianity, door locks, pedestrianised areas, the pavement, the census, central heating, the apartment block, the public newspaper, the sock, a variety of trumpets, the umbrella, the public toilet, various cosmetics, candles (edible ones), the mangle, scissors, the magnifying glass, different left and right shoes, the bikini, the shower, the public spa, pool, gym, library etc., the postal system or street lighting? They were all Roman inventions. Do you think that those who developed the wheel or other such developments wrote it down? It is quite possible for science such as metalworking to advance without writing.

Yeah, I've heard of those. All Roman inventions, but those are inventions based on science, they are not itself science. Engineers etc. use science to invent things, and researchers update and research science. Scientific theories alone aren't really practical, but can be used to create solutions to problems and innovations. Innovations usually pass on to new generations without being written in down, but if quantum physics are not written down, they are lost quite fast without any proper scientific education. And having paper actually helps there too.
Romans didn't really create physics theories, they didn't come up with many new mathematical formulas, chemistry was unknown and philosophy was thing for slackers. They were good engineers, thus the cement, aquaduct, concrete,construction, scissors... These are technological advancements, but they aren't science.
Most science Romans did was social sciences - education, law, politics, management...

Most of the greatest dwarf inventions, such as drowning chamber and mist machine are created by the "engineering skill" of the player. I think limiting choices for the player would be a bad thing, as currently it already is limited by player's "engineering skills"(and science skill! Lava doesn't generate pressure upwards).

But things such as new, stronger metals are practical, and that is largely what we are talking about here.

This is an awful quote pyramid

[Pjoo]

But things such as new, stronger metals are practical, and that is largely what we are talking about here.

Assuming you know that iron is stronger than copper, there is nothing that restricts you to copper, expect the higher temperature required to smelt the ore. And dwarves should have some experience with metals, living inside mountains and all that.
Some kind of research/unlocking system might be good with healthcare and maybe alchemy/chemistry, but other than that, I think the limit on technology based on skill and creativity of the player is good. Having to wait few hundred years for a pump or drawbridge would be so annoying. Like I've said, Dwarves are good with engineering in pretty much any game, and thus, if they want central heating or way to carry more items at same time, I don't think solution would be hard to come up with.

[Granite26]

Dwarf-centric fallacy?

Oh, and change expect to except.  Not to give you a hard time, it's just wrong enough to be jarring in your generally excellent grammar.

[Pjoo]

Dwarf-centric fallacy?

Well, it would fit for humans to have harder time creating certain metals and such. Would require better smelting techniques and fuel.  Still not sure it would fit the game. Takes too long, most games (mine atleast) will end up with humans on copper age. And with the populations in the game, it wouldn't be realistic. But that could be changed.

Oh, and change expect to except.  Not to give you a hard time, it's just wrong enough to be jarring in your generally excellent grammar.

Thank you. I have some of these random words in my writing that looks like the word but I actually always type the wrong one. Such as expirience. Expect Im sure I wont remember to type except

[Granite26]

I've never said that I thought technical advancement should be part of the normal fort gameplay in the way that starcraft (start at 0 every map???) is.

[Lyrax]

There is some "soft" progression in-game already in that most advanced tech - such as steelmaking or glassmaking - requires more dwarves and resources to be run with any amount of efficiency.

I think people underestimate just how powerful this force can be.  There's good arguments that this is predominantly responsible for Earth's technical progress.

QFT.
Much of ancient "technology" was not increased by discoveries of facts previously unknown, but rather by labor and economic progress being sufficient to implement known theories, practices and techniques.  And I like it how the PLAYER gets to invent most of the great dwarven creations, like the magma-spewing Ultimate Weapon of Surface Destruction.

[qwertyuiopas]

I remember the idea of technology advancement has been discussed before.

Key ideas, possibly mine, or at least biased towards what I remember:

• Discoveries could propagate through trade/war relationships, biased to be exchanged to allies and other same-race civs, others would have to steal it from someone who has it. It should take between months and years for a significant spread, depending at least partly on the inventor location and their willingness to share.
• If a raw-based tech-tree is NOT implemented by the time of player-defined workshops, they will create one by requiring tech-resource N produced at building G to construct advanced building Q

[blah28722]

• If a raw-based tech-tree is NOT implemented by the time of player-defined workshops, they will create one by requiring tech-resource N produced at building G to construct advanced building Q

"Hey, stick this cheese in the smelter so we can make glass."

[Granite26]

There is some "soft" progression in-game already in that most advanced tech - such as steelmaking or glassmaking - requires more dwarves and resources to be run with any amount of efficiency.

I think people underestimate just how powerful this force can be.  There's good arguments that this is predominantly responsible for Earth's technical progress.

QFT.
Much of ancient "technology" was not increased by discoveries of facts previously unknown, but rather by labor and economic progress being sufficient to implement known theories, practices and techniques.  And I like it how the PLAYER gets to invent most of the great dwarven creations, like the magma-spewing Ultimate Weapon of Surface Destruction.

A really good example of how this could be codified is mechanical efficiency.  Say there's a range between the point where a windmill could only power a millstone it's right over(appropriate for low level techs).  Now, start improving the windmill's output and the mechanism's efficiency.  All of a sudden you start creating the possibility to use a bank of windmills to pump magma way under ground (whereas previously chaining windmills was so friction inefficient you didn't do it.).  Finally, things shrink down enough that a tower with a windmill on top can power an elevator or whatever.

Basically, the point is, you leave all the techs in, but improving the mechanical efficiency allows you to do more with the same materials.

This really matters, because if you need to build 50 windmills to power all your pumps, it might be easier to just use manpower, whereas 10 windmills, and all of a sudden you're going all techy.

[Lyrax]

And if mechanical efficiency is controlled by the quality of the parts...

then it's a big, awesome change with relatively little work on Toady's part.  I like that.

[Andeerz]

Well, I know I'm sorta attempting to resurrect a dead thread, but yeah... and thanks for bearing with me ahead of time... Here I go:

Nice!  That's sorta what I was thinking!

With regard to the previous two posts and what Warlord255 said, though I am no anthropologist and have limited background on the matter, this is what makes best sense to me how technology has progressed through the ages and this game has the capacity to be an EXCELLENT model for this as well as for the spreading of knowledge which is directly related to this.  And I believe it can do this without compromising the fun or interesting-ness of the game in any technological age a fort is founded in. 

What I'm trying to say is that regardless of age (for example stone age vs. rennaissance) the same basic needs existed and there were equivalent technologies present to address those needs, albeit in less technologically advanced ages they were less efficient or effective or what have you.  For example, armor has existed in every age in human history with the same overall goals of protecting the wearer, it just differed in its efficiency of doing so, or did so with similar efficiency relative to the weapons of the time.  Agriculture is another example, as well as mining, architecture, metallurgy, weaponry, and transportation among others.  Basically, no matter whether you have bronze age technology or rennaissance-level refinement in the Dwarf Fortress world you generated and fortress you are controlling, there will always be a way to, say, build a magma cannon of doom as mentioned previously; you would just have to go about doing it a different way depending on the technology available.  And that to me would make every technological age have a different flavor yet be equally interesting and fun.  I hope I'm making sense here.

But, yeah, it's late and I need to go to bed.  Perhaps tomorrow I will post with better clarity what it is I'm trying to say, but I was excited and couldn't resist myself.  I also want to respond better to Warlord255's post as I know of some excellent examples to support his/her claim.  I also have some suggestions relevant to this post in general I need to hash out better.  Agh.

[ArkDelgato]

Hey hey, someone posted in this old thread!
And eloquently at that, not common in escaped lunatics.

I still think that this is a good idea, especially now that megabeasts are toughening up and that stopping in year 200 isn't as good as 1050.