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[Granite26]

There is some "soft" progression in-game already in that most advanced tech - such as steelmaking or glassmaking - requires more dwarves and resources to be run with any amount of efficiency.

I think people underestimate just how powerful this force can be.  There's good arguments that this is predominantly responsible for Earth's technical progress.

[eerr]

what is this, civilisation?
command and conquer?


no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

[madrain]

In theory it's not a terrible idea, but I'm not sure I'd like to see it happen.  It would be cool to start at year 1 and be a group of underteched dwarfs living in a world full of megabeasts and giant animals.. but given how random worldgen is, you might end up with civilizations which cannot produce steel, iron, etc., because they don't have access to the resources and the civilizations that did grew extinct.  You can't count on your one smart dwarven society deciding to spread the news around the globe before the elf society they are at war with wipes them from the face of the earth.  And elves should have no interest in trying to learn that secret from dead dwarfs because of their wood_pref.

In short, I think this would be something to try after version 1.0 is released, long after everything else fun is added and fixed, because there's way too much potential for this idea to suck.

[Pjoo]

no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

Yep. The way I see it, dwarves are great manufacturers and engineers, but they really don't seem to record any scientific progress, which would kinda be required for advanced physics and things like electricity and steam engines.

[Granite26]

no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

Yep. The way I see it, dwarves are great manufacturers and engineers, but they really don't seem to record any scientific progress, which would kinda be required for advanced physics and things like electricity and steam engines.

Are you saying that it shouldn't be in because it's not in?

what is this, civilisation?
command and conquer?


no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

In worldgen mode, it's VERY similar to Civilization.

[Pjoo]

no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

Yep. The way I see it, dwarves are great manufacturers and engineers, but they really don't seem to record any scientific progress, which would kinda be required for advanced physics and things like electricity and steam engines.

Are you saying that it shouldn't be in because it's not in?

Evolving tech levels shouldn't be in cause well, their science doesn't really advance as the things aren't written up(Well, I haven't never seen E=MC^2 in the engravings, neither I've seen any paper being produced). Dwarves are kinda like Romans in that way, good engineering, some innovations, but not much scientific progress. I think it could be blamed on the alcohol also!

[Granite26]

no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

Yep. The way I see it, dwarves are great manufacturers and engineers, but they really don't seem to record any scientific progress, which would kinda be required for advanced physics and things like electricity and steam engines.

Are you saying that it shouldn't be in because it's not in?

Evolving tech levels shouldn't be in cause well, their science doesn't really advance as the things aren't written up(Well, I haven't never seen E=MC^2 in the engravings, neither I've seen any paper being produced). Dwarves are kinda like Romans in that way, good engineering, some innovations, but not much scientific progress. I think it could be blamed on the alcohol also!

So now you're saying they don't write anything down?

[Pjoo]

no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

Yep. The way I see it, dwarves are great manufacturers and engineers, but they really don't seem to record any scientific progress, which would kinda be required for advanced physics and things like electricity and steam engines.

Are you saying that it shouldn't be in because it's not in?

Evolving tech levels shouldn't be in cause well, their science doesn't really advance as the things aren't written up(Well, I haven't never seen E=MC^2 in the engravings, neither I've seen any paper being produced). Dwarves are kinda like Romans in that way, good engineering, some innovations, but not much scientific progress. I think it could be blamed on the alcohol also!

So now you're saying they don't write anything down?

That's what I was saying all the time. Or they do engrave stuff down, but that is images of events and history, maybe innovations, but not physics theories.

[jaked122]

..."dwarven sientist invents ______"?

No, having it be a moodlike event would be terrible and make everyone mad when it doesn't happen.

Having it happen as a cultural-wide thing during worldgen would be best.   That way worldgen parameters can ensure you get the tech levels you want.

standard RTS laboratory for the scientist to Tinker with, perhaps he would have a separate mood counter that would be incremented when he worked... perhaps...

[Granite26]

That's what I was saying all the time. Or they do engrave stuff down, but that is images of events and history, maybe innovations, but not physics theories.

Isn't that a form of saying 'It's not supported, so it shouldn't be supported'?  If technical advancement were added, and logically required writing, wouldn't they be added at the same time?

Mind you, Books and papers and writings are part of the Bloats, and probably a few Reqs as well.

I'm against a civilization style 'hire scientists that produce research points' model, but am definitely pro an architecture that allows descriptions of different civs with different tech levels.  These could be vertical (through time) or horizontal (through space)

[Pjoo]

That's what I was saying all the time. Or they do engrave stuff down, but that is images of events and history, maybe innovations, but not physics theories.

Isn't that a form of saying 'It's not supported, so it shouldn't be supported'?  If technical advancement were added, and logically required writing, wouldn't they be added at the same time?

Ah...
Well, It was more saying like, the dwarvish culture doesn't support scientific research, so it shouldn't be supported. I don't think technological advances would be improvement on the gameplay anyways, as waiting for certain technological improvements would be just, well... annoying.
Also, I don't think there is any good way of implenting it, populations in the game aren't really optimal for scientific progress, would take thousands of years for humans to research anything.

[Granite26]

That's what I was saying all the time. Or they do engrave stuff down, but that is images of events and history, maybe innovations, but not physics theories.

Isn't that a form of saying 'It's not supported, so it shouldn't be supported'?  If technical advancement were added, and logically required writing, wouldn't they be added at the same time?

Ah...
Well, It was more saying like, the dwarvish culture doesn't support scientific research, so it shouldn't be supported. I don't think technological advances would be improvement on the gameplay anyways, as waiting for certain technological improvements would be just, well... annoying.
Also, I don't think there is any good way of implenting it, populations in the game aren't really optimal for scientific progress, would take thousands of years for humans to research anything.

I mostly agree with you. 

Technological advancement shouldn't be a game mechanic in the scope of a single fortress.  I mean, you might get a new development on the same scale as a megabeast showing up or striking HFS, or the occasional trader showing up wanting all your wealth for the secrets of the compass, but not something that regularly changes how you play.  (0-3 instances in 50 year fort)

I DO think that it should be a world mechanic in the same scope of civs building armies and starting new sites, with the layout of the tech level between civs and changes through time affecting who's on top in the various wars.  Say there are 100 techs... 50 of them (chosen with the same randomness that generally leaves dwarves and goblins at war, so that dwarves generally get steel early, etc) get 'discovered' in the first 100 years.  At a rate of about 1 per 10 years on a worldwide scale things continue to grow.  (where '1' is on the order of 'slightly improved harness allows for horses to be ridden 1 hour longer)
 
One thing to help imagine this is that you don't start your fort with 0 tech and must develop to 100 tech to build something specific.  It's more you start with 50 tech and if you're lucky, 20 years later you've advanced to 51 tech.


One tech thing that I kinda liked was the Axis and Allies system.  Tech advances were so expensive in the scope of the game that they weren't always even a good idea to pursue. 


Books

Pjoo makes an excellent point with the books and writing stuff down.  How much knowledge was lost because it was discovered and then forgetten.  Imagine 'advances' coming on a similar level to moods.  An advancement takes the form of a prototype, but being able to have it be used in the future relies on the knowledge being learned and transferred forward in time.  99% of all advancements would be lost because who's going to copy/protect/distribute a book with knowledge that won't be useful until 5 other prerequisite techs get invented and brought into use in a single place?

Urist McMadScientist invents the laser rifle, but no others can be built for 50 bajillion years   (OK, that's ridiculous, but how cool would articulated plate mail as an artifact level item be)

[blue sam3]

no, any technological innovation comes from the experiance of the dwarves, who can now handle making more difficult products.

Yep. The way I see it, dwarves are great manufacturers and engineers, but they really don't seem to record any scientific progress, which would kinda be required for advanced physics and things like electricity and steam engines.

Are you saying that it shouldn't be in because it's not in?

Evolving tech levels shouldn't be in cause well, their science doesn't really advance as the things aren't written up(Well, I haven't never seen E=MC^2 in the engravings, neither I've seen any paper being produced). Dwarves are kinda like Romans in that way, good engineering, some innovations, but not much scientific progress. I think it could be blamed on the alcohol also!

Ever heard of the aquaduct, many medical and surgical tools, the cesarean section, fast drying cement, reinforced concrete, the military camp/military construction procedures (such as Ceasar's bridge across the Rhine), the grid system of city planning, the professional army (not sure on this one, but they certainly developed it (particularly Marius)), much of many modern legal systems, satire, &, etc., NB, PS, Curriculum Vitae, Senator, Republic, Plebeian, Prefect, President, Legal, Penal, Judge, Judicial etc., the Julian Calendar, the seven day week, Christmas, Christianity, door locks, pedestrianised areas, the pavement, the census, central heating, the apartment block, the public newspaper, the sock, a variety of trumpets, the umbrella, the public toilet, various cosmetics, candles (edible ones), the mangle, scissors, the magnifying glass, different left and right shoes, the bikini, the shower, the public spa, pool, gym, library etc., the postal system or street lighting? They were all Roman inventions. Do you think that those who developed the wheel or other such developments wrote it down? It is quite possible for science such as metalworking to advance without writing.

[neek]

a). Satire was a Greek invention, b). the 7 day week is fairly historic, going to at least the 7th-6th century BC, while not predating the Romans per se, around this time Rome was under Etruscan rule, c). and a shit-ton of other stuff, but I think we all get your point

[Neonivek]

Goodness, we are getting to the point where my list of the major ways ideas are rejected.

Anyhow.

Dwarves will eventually own and use books. However access to books isn't a requirement for technological advancement or research nor does it guarentee it.

Technological advancement happens after the populous accepts and uses it.

Much of the technology rediscovered in the Renaisance wasn't exactly lost. It was simply unused rotting in a library, private collections, or a monistary somewhere.

So you can still have lost technology with books. It just means that rediscovery is easier.

Edit Addition

1) It isn't immediately implimentable: You will get this a lot. People will shot ideas down based on the idea that the game as it is currently could not support the idea.
-Example Phrase: Ranged weapons are broken so we shouldn't add Longbows.
2) It isn't for Dwarves: Despite having 5 races you will often see people shoot down ideas because they don't apply to Dwarves.
-Example Phrase: Juice isn't very Dwarf-like, why would they drink someone that isn't alcoholic?
3) It isn't like how the game is currently: Similar to the first one but it represents theme rather then mechanics. Basically taking the game as it is currently as a end result.
-Example Phrase: Elves don't need homes, they sleep on the dirt

Hmm the list isn't as comprehensive as I remember and I am not sure how much it applies here.