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[Dohon]

Just saw "Ultramarines: a Warhammer 40k movie".  Eh. I guess if you are the type who devours the books and craves more it will entertain you. Everyone else stay away.

I sadly have to agree. While it was cool to see Sphess Mahreens in action, it somehow felt ... detached. The movie was run on a tight budget and it shows. Woody animations, a story that has too much "downtime" in which nothing happens. Some lore discussions are also possible, but I'll not go into those here because that would carry me too far (not even GW is infallible when it comes to lore). It's a shame really. If the movie had the budget of Avatar and it was based on one of the better novels, it would be a massive hit.

If you want to convert new people to the glorious carnage that is Warhammer 40K, let them read a good book or heck, even one of the Codices. This movie will scare them away.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

Is it worth it to get the hobby starter set?

What's in it?


Found the camera, and managed to get a few decent shots, if none spectacular. I would keep trying, but uploading them to my laptop entails removing the memory card from the camera, sticking it in a slot on the laptop, and then using pliers to pull it back out, so I think I'll settle for "good enough." It's not like the paint job is that spectacular either...
(The plank on the side is the right length that a model could be set on it to indicate what unit in particular is riding in it, which is the only reason I had to have it extended other than "it looks kind of cool")

Spoiler: Raider Closeups (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Wych Closeups (click to show/hide)

This next one is the first I assembled, and in keeping with that also the first I painted. Considering prior to this I had never assembled any model as variable and freeform as this, used plastic glue (still amazed at how fast it stick the bits of the model together, yet doesn't adhere to anything but plastic), nor picked up a paint brush in over a decade (and I was rather terrible with one back then), I think it turned out better than I could have hoped for, crude work though it is.



This last one was the last wych I assembled, and the last to be painted. Note the improvement over the previous one. I did fail to properly clean the excess plastic off the arm with the pistol though... That happened with a few models, and I didn't catch it until after I'd spraypainted them.

There'd be more closeups of the wyches, but all the other pictures I took wound up either out of focus, washed out from too-bright light (I don't know how the hell this camera works, so I couldn't adjust the shutter speed to compensate...), or with really weird focus issues.

There are still some details that need filling in on the Raider, like putting an icon on the flag and sails (and I've lost the transfer sheet, so I'll have to paint one on; at least I didn't particularly care for the ones on the transfer sheet anyways) and adding a few more details to the crew. Most of the wyches could use a little more work too, but I'm not real keen on going back over them to fix things up, although I definitely need to choose a color for the shardnet (right now it's just a basecoat of Chaos Black with boltgun metal hooks on the edge).

I'm the worst kind of heretic. I paint without primer, or a base coat, and use non-citadel paints. I used lacquer car paints from some random store brand. I also use Popsicle sticks to mix, and toothpicks to paint.
And the worst part is, it doesn't look bad.

The only reason I can justify $3.70 for an ounce of paint (or $15 for a can of spraypaint) is that so little is used; I may as well stick to the official brand and be sure of decent results with it, since the pieces I'm painting far outweigh the cost of even citadel paints and I don't feel like gambling with generic paints, since I know exactly jack shit about how they'll end up looking. If I had to paint something the size of a titan, maybe I'd feel a little different, but then again, if I had something the size of a titan, I clearly have enough money to just piss it all away, so the cost of paint wouldn't be a drop in a bucket.

[Urist McMalaclypse]

I'm still having a hard time believing the Dark Eldar update is here, even with minis in hand. I got into 40k shortly after the last codex came out, so this is uncharted utopia for me. And such lovely new modeling as well.

Come to think of it, maybe that's part of why DF isn't so painful to me; I've become inured to pain.

[Omegastick]

Personally, I don't see how people can spend so much on GW models; they are plastic and mass-produced but still cost £15.50 for a pack of five space marines! Think about how much it costs them to produce them, I reckon less than £3 for the pack, so that's a £12 profit on every pack!

For comparison take Flames of War (which is still fairly expensive, but the rules lend themselves very well to just about every situation so I put up with it), you can get 47 Russians (possibly more, I didn't count them individually and I've lost some since then) for £11.50, less if you have a supplier that gives a discount as I do. Now, the models are 15mm, compared to the 28mm of GW models but they are solid lead models, which more than evens out the cost to produce each model.

I was just browsing the site and noticed this, £13.80 for a single model?! Compared to Flames of War special characters which come to no more than £6.75 (that's when they're mounted in a tank, normally you get a team of them (three models) for about £1) that's a huge rip-off!

[Sir Pseudonymous]

You say "plastic" like that's a bad thing. You can easily cut plastic and assemble models with plastic glue instead of super glue (plastic glue dries to the point where it will hold a plastic piece in place in about four seconds, and is completely solid within a minute or two, yet it doesn't stick to skin, it's just kind of oily if you get it on your hands; whereas superglue (what one requires for metal) is none of those things). I don't know shit about Flames of War, perhaps there's no assembly involved, in which case it's not really the same thing now, is it?

You're also looking at space marine pieces, the herp derp faction that gets pushed on new players. Their basic infantry squad is $40 for ten pieces, their "heavy" infantry is $50 for five models. For comparison, every other faction (except perhaps other SM factions, like yiff marines and chaos marines) gets ten man infantry squads for $25, and lighter vehicles are usually $30 something (Chimeras are $35, Raiders are $33), with full fledged tanks going for $50. Assuming you're not buying them at a discount. Sure, they're still more than other wargames, but they're made in the US (the equally exorbitantly priced paint is made in france), with the exception of the metal figures they're highly customizable, and most of the newer models are absolutely gorgeous. People drool over Forgeworld's Death Korps models (which, by the way, make even SM look cheap, at about $60 per ten man squad), but the new deldar pieces, and some of the daemons (some just look retarded, like all of the greater daemons, as well as fiends of slaanesh and plaguebearers, all of which are tragically rather good units to field...), are just as beautiful. I hear the prototypes for the new Sisters of Battle are amazing too. (As an aside, I suppose this means that either they've gotten better modelers to design the pieces, or their modelers have been getting progressively better over the years)


Sure, it's still expensive, but compared to almost any other hobby it's either on par or cheaper (hell, look at (console) gaming: you fork over a few hundred for a shitty, locked down computer, then pay a huge premium (at least $60) for buggy ten hour games that you get to play with a mishapen vibrator with a couple of buttons and a miniature doorknob tacked on). The ~$60 worth of models I've bought (which weren't at the cheapest I could find them, I bought them at local game stores rather than ordering online) have kept me entertained for around 20 hours so far, just in the assembly and painting (admittedly, a lot of that was getting the basics down, but I have yet to even play a game with them (since, you know, it's not a functional army at this point)).

[Omegastick]

I'm not saying that plastic is a bad thing (the FoW tank bodies are solid, high-quality resin and still only come to ~£7 for a medium tank), I'm saying that it's cheaper to mass-produce, and as such it makes sense that upon making the transition from plastic to metal it should be cheaper, but no, it gets more expensive for us (ex in my case) loyal fanatics.

I forgot about Forgeworld in my rant, that is the worst part of the greedy, capitalist money making machine known as GW. An upgrade kit for the Imperial Guard (who are horde army, and as such get things cheaper) is £18.40 (plus ridiculous PnP)! You can get nearly a hundred FoW models for that (over 100 if you include the PnP)! Remember, that is just an upgrade kit! I decided to take a look at the Eldar section, thinking that perhaps they would be better priced, but no - what do I find there? £51 for a single model! Hmm, surely that's the most expensive thing they have... WHAT?! £175.85 for a 12inch high model! You can't be serious?!  Now, let's compare the Baneblade to the largest super-heavy in FoW, the KV-5. A single Baneblade is £61.50, whereas three KV-5s are £26 (that comes to £8.67 a tank)! Seriously, what are GW models made of? Gold?

You can't say that the sculpting on GW models makes them worth the huge, rip-off prices either, because I was brought over to FoW by the quality of the models and I have converted three people to FoW because of how good they look!

Funnily enough one of the members of my local gaming club actually helped found GW, he was a close friend of the founders and helped them make the rules for the first edition of Warhammer. He was invited to officially join GW as a founder but he declined for some reason (he never actually told me why).

Finally, I will end this post on a note about the rules of 40k: the rules are shockingly bad, they leave hardly any room for tactics beyond keep your fragile people behind walls to shoot and throw your hardy people at the enemy. The only armies that don't involve finding cover and waiting there, shooting at your enemy every turn are the Orks and the Tyranids, which both involve launching everything you have at the enemy.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

Now, let's compare the Baneblade to the largest super-heavy in FoW, the KV-5. A single Baneblade is £61.50, whereas three KV-5s are £26 (that comes to £8.67 a tank)! Seriously, what are GW models made of? Gold?

Baneblades aren't something that'll be fielded in any games but apocalypse, which generally entails thousands of dollars worth of models.

You can't say that the sculpting on GW models makes them worth the huge, rip-off prices either, because I was brought over to FoW by the quality of the models and I have converted three people to FoW because of how good they look!

Yeah, there are a lot of shitty looking models. I think most of them date back to third edition or so, where almost everything looked like ass.

Funnily enough one of the members of my local gaming club actually helped found GW, he was a close friend of the founders and helped them make the rules for the first edition of Warhammer. He was invited to officially join GW as a founder but he declined for some reason (he never actually told me why).

That sounds like someone who's just pulling your leg.

Finally, I will end this post on a note about the rules of 40k: the rules are shockingly bad, they leave hardly any room for tactics beyond keep your fragile people behind walls to shoot and throw your hardy people at the enemy. The only armies that don't involve finding cover and waiting there, shooting at your enemy every turn are the Orks and the Tyranids, which both involve launching everything you have at the enemy.

That's... really not true, in the least. When did you stop playing 40K?

[Omegastick]

Baneblades aren't something that'll be fielded in any games but apocalypse, which generally entails thousands of dollars worth of models.

Still, the Land Raider (the equivalent of a heavy tank in FoW) is £38.50, compared to £7.50 for a heavy tank in FoW.

That sounds like someone who's just pulling your leg.

I've known him for quite a while, so it's doubtful, but I have no proof either way here. Regardless, it was just a story that I remembered that isn't really related to the rest of the rant.

That's... really not true, in the least. When did you stop playing 40K?

I quit 40k a few months after the latest Tyranid codex was released, and at that time it was pretty true because any other tactic resulted in getting destroyed by the opposing army. 40k's rules are more suited to army building than actual on-the-table tactics.

[Detrevni|inverteD]

I'm not going to go all fanboy and say that the prices aren't unfair. Because they are. But I enjoy the hobby so much that really I'm willing to pay that much for it, considering the time it takes me to make things and paint them, it offers me more time and enjoyment for my money than any other entertainment outlet.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

I don't know, I'd personally argue that there are things that are a hell of a lot worse deals for what you're getting, like most digital media (movies, music, games, etc). $20 for the privilege of seeing a two hour movie? $60 for a 4-10 hour game? $10-20(? Not sure what the upper price range on CDs goes to) for at most an hour of music that has little purpose beyond ambient noise?

To each their own. It's mainly the new deldar pieces and rules that convinced me to actually buy an army. I know jack shit about Flames of War, but from what you've said I'm guessing it's kind of a generic WWII wargame? Let's see... Yep, wikipedia and 1d4chan confirm that, and going off what 1d4chan says about its gameplay, it doesn't sound all that interesting to me.

Also, you know how much of a bitch it is to paint 25mm minis? I can't imagine dropping that down to 15mm would make the process any more pleasant... Especially where the assembly is concerned, since metal entails superglue (since it doesn't sound like they're solid figures from what wikipedia says of the line).

[Omegastick]

There are much worse deals out there than war gaming, but why make it worse for yourself and buy hugely expensive lumps of plastic when you can get much less expensive metal ones?

About flames of war: FoW is a WWII (I don't know what you mean by generic, it stays true to history if that is what you mean) wargame that uses 15mm models. It lends itself to large scale battles, but rules are included for in-depth small scale warfare. The rules, in my opinion, are much better than the Fantasy or 40k rules for several reasons:

1. Tactics beyond stay behind cover and bombard the enemy/run towards the enemy and be bombarded come into play. This makes flanking, advancing from cover to cover and holding certain positions useful. For example, infantry that have found and fortified a building are going to be near impossible to destroy with an all-out attack, and as such you will either need to call in an air strike, pin them down with a hail of bullets or provide them with some bait while someone else sneaks into the building and takes them out. Now, let's take that situation in 40k: firstly, you can't fortify your position. Now, let's say that you shoot at them; they have a 4+ cover save or their armour/invulnerable save, which for space marines is 3+, making cover actually impractical due to the vision blocking. Alright, let's call in an air- wait a minute, there are none! Okay then, due to the fact that a solid brick wall won't give them any advantages we will simply stand in the open and out shoot them or attack them from the outside of the building where they would, realistically, have the advantage... Yahoo! They're dead!

2. Assaulting is horribly imbalanced towards characters in 40k. A single special character can easily take on an entire enemy squad in close-combat and win! As such it becomes a battle of the characters when more than one is involved, and the rest of the army is simply there to provide meat shields.

3. Everyone is incredibly brave in 40k. Oh no, my entire army has been killed leaving just a single model! Whatever, he'll just stand in the open and shoot at them while they rush towards him/shoot at him.

4. Okay, this isn't a rules complaint but in 40k almost all (not all) players are immature pre-teens that have never finished painting an army. They are incredibly annoying to play against and their models make the game look like crap.

5. 40k Apocalypse is annoying. Individually moving every model will get repetitive after a while (FoW models come in teams of up to five per base) and it is just the same tactics as the regular game, but with more models! In comparison to FoW where (without taking into account the additional rules) good large scale tactics will dominate. For instance, say you take the 40k tactics into a Total War game and find yourself some cover and sit there, you will immediately be bombarded with aircraft attacks and artillery shells whilst the enemy sticks a bayonet in your face. No, you need to plan out your battle, keep your machine guns and tank destroyers on top of a building or hill to fire over the rest of your army whilst the main force is split up into two self-sufficient companies that flank your enemy.

There are many more reasons but I think you get the point as to why FoW rules are better than 40k rules.

Now, on to painting: You'd think that painting 15mm models is harder than 28mm models and upon thinking that you would be wrong. I thought that the transition would be painful but 15mm models are actually much nicer to paint as washes, etc. have a much larger effect. The process of painting 15mm miniatures is also much more pleasant due to the fact that you don't have large areas to fill with paint, a gun is covered in two strokes and clothing is basecoated with no more than ten (to get in all the detailed crevices). The infantry comes as solid lumps of metal, requiring no assembly and the tanks are customisable due to the fact that they require assembly only of the tracks and parts that are suitable for customisation (gun, flaps, hatch, etc.).

[hemmingjay]

Buying my first set today without the intention of ever playing. I simply want to assemble and paint the miniatures and in my area(NYC) W40k is the most abundant selection. While I would prefer the tactile feel and sense of permanence of metal figures, I see the value in 40k's decision. Also, the prices are higher because the product is hotter. If FoW could get the higher prices, they would. It's a function of demand pricing.

Any advice on which set to "cut my teeth" on? Was thinking of just getting the Assault on Black Reach for the value. Any opinions? Also, can anyone recommend a good first book to read to get me into the lore(played the pc games, but still feel like I am missing a lot)?

Thanks guys.

[warhammer651]

Any advice on which set to "cut my teeth" on? Was thinking of just getting the Assault on Black Reach for the value. Any opinions? Also, can anyone recommend a good first book to read to get me into the lore(played the pc games, but still feel like I am missing a lot)?

I've been reading the Horus Heresy series, which happens about 10k years before 40k. Starts with Horus Rising, then False Gods, Let the Galaxy Burn, Flight of the Eisenstein, and a few other books that occur at various points in there.

I would also recommend the CAIPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM series. It's a bit more light-hearted than the other series they have.

[Man of Paper]

Double Eagle was pretty good, in my opinion. So was Desert Raiders.
Currently reading Ravenor.

[Burnt Pies]

I've just finished 'The Lost' collection, the third collection of Gaunt's Ghosts books. Gotta say I really enjoy those books.

I don't particularly like the 40k game anymore, the power creep of the new armies makes it damn hard to play my Eldar. I've completely switched to Necromunda, which is a much more enjoyable game, in my opinion.