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[Dvergar]

imo, all goblins should be able to sap, the dwarven static defences would prove to be next to nothing unless perhaps if a military grade wall was built with stone blocks

This would make seiges extremely lethal, and relying more on military might than simply waiting them out.  To balance this extremely game changing and unfair [sapper] tag, imho the goblins shouldn't know where you are in the first place, among the many cliches that follow around dwarves, one of them is the whole idea dwarves living in some hidden city that is of course built underground.

imo, goblins wouldn't even have a slight chance of finding you if your fortress is miles away from any gobo civ, however, if you try settling in the hills next to a gobo civ, you had better have stealth a top priority, the less you go above ground the less likely they will find you

In addition, damming or tapping into brooks or chopping down trees in a slash and clear fashion will prompt an investigation by a gobo squad.  If they see you and make it home alive you now have a very angry gobo civ that will likey make war upon you.  To prevent gobo armies sighting and overrunning little 7 dwarf forts I would think that more citizens increase the chance of getting spotted, caravans getting ambushed and betraying your fortress's location would be cool.

Tolkien readers, think Gondolian

[Rowanas]

I reckon they would just jump. Everything should be able to just jump if it's one z-level. Hell, uber-tough champions should just leap over any reasonable distance fall because, hey, they can.

[Umi]

As got the bombers, it doesn't have to have gunpowder, there are a lot of explosive, easy to get, materials out there.  They could have a barrel of oil (Or rum for the lulz/to anger the dwarfs) strapped to their backs and move twice as slow as normal soldiers.

Explosion =\= gunpowder

[Rowanas]

In the pre 1400 topic we suggested fluffy wambler extract for explosions

[LegoLord]

Oil and rum don't really explode.  An explosion requires that a reaction involving a sold creates a great deal of hot gas.

[Dwaref]

in LOTR it was saruman who whipped up that shit, unless the demons are REALLY scientists/alchemists/wizards in disguise, i don't think gobbos should have access to high explosives.

of all the settled races, only the dwarves should be able to do that stuff.

[Tack]

I think that goblins are on a level with culture as opposed to dwarves. It's kobolds that are stupid. So a Goblin blowyupy, is feasible, especially with the rum barrel idea. They could also have a raws which simply puts in the option for them to explode instead of attacking. Which would make raws haxing suddenly become scary.

Anyway, elaborating on goblin sappers. What if they had the shovel, they could only dig through sand or loam, they only dug staircases and channels, and the holes all filled in every season. Much like healing dwarves, but with a 100% chance.

[Pilsu]

As long as they're actually sappers instead of tunnelers. I hope I don't have to explain why attacking a fort from a foot wide hole in the ground is.. silly.

[Neonivek]

As long as they're actually sappers instead of tunnelers. I hope I don't have to explain why attacking a fort from a foot wide hole in the ground is.. silly.

Not all that silly if you use enough tunnels and a proper carrying system. Unless you mean the size of the tunnels.

[Dvergar]

By sappers, yes I meant tunnelers, the problem is, they should not be able to mine at even quarter the speed of dwarves, and should use hands and feet and not tools

[Granite26]

By sappers, yes I meant tunnelers, the problem is, they should not be able to mine at even quarter the speed of dwarves, and should use hands and feet and not tools

You aren't spreading the 'goblins aren't a real civilization' fallicy again, are you?

[Rowanas]

These ideas about having goblins dig temporary tunnels is stupid. How do goblins dig tunnels that self destruct? It takes a fair bit of effort on the art of the dwarves to get such a thing, why should goblins do it automatically?

Digging underneath a wall would be cool for an ambush squad, but as siegers and stuff appear they're going to need so many tunnels to make it an effective way of attacking. The alternative (the extremely cool but almost impossible AI-wise alternative) would be to occasionally get goblin ambush squads that dig into your fort via a single tunnel and wait in the recesses of your fort, just waiting for everyone to assemble so that they can breach a wall or something and storm through the fortress. The only decent way to prevent such a thing would be to install subterranean walls so that you get a warning message, or constantly patrolling your perimeter with dwarves who might spot a new tunnel or something.

Basically, things done by sneaking invaders should be invisible until a dwarf notices it, just like the way sneaking invaders work personally.

[Dvergar]

The gobos of course could build temporary wall on purpose with the intent of caving in the floor above

[Neonivek]

How do goblins dig tunnels that self destruct?

What they are doing is effectively building quick temporary tunnels without the support system to allow them to be pernament. Eventually the tunnels naturally degrade and fall appart. It is no more self destructing then socks do by gaining holes.
-Interesting this could add a mechanic where the tunnel could fail and collapse on the Goblins.

As for Goblins without tools. The Goblins are an advanced race. Though in terms of social structure they are one of the most primative of he five cornerstone Civilisation (Human, Goblin, Elf, Dwarf, and Kobold) they are however not lacking in terms of technology. Capable of creating all metals as well as having the technology to create large fortresses of their own. They are effectively on Par with the Dwarves until the races get more defined.

[Lord Dakoth]

Indeed. I think that goblins would very much like the idea of explosives, or anything that can make a bloody mess in 2 seconds flat.