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[Umi]

It sounds kind of obvious to myself, but my search didn't bring up any results, so here it goes...

In the last Talk session he mentioned having the goblins being able to overcome any static defense.  My idea was for there to be other classes of goblins.  Obviously there is still the regular grunts, but in addition there be specialized goblins that are like soldiers but they have other "skills" for dismantling defenses.  Here were some ideas:

Explosive goblins-Suicide bombers, they have a bomb strapped to them and can't fight worth crap.  They run at a normal speed, but when they get to their destination they explode and destroy any nearby walls (Maybe anything within 5 tiles of it), cause a lot of smoke and injure any dwarfs nearby with severe burns.  Not a very common type, but they could severely hamper the "wall ourselves in forever and never be hurt" strategy.

Trap Experts-Fight like normal soldiers, but they also can disable traps once they see someone else get got in one.  If they flee then they retain their knowledge and are even more lethal next siege.  Fairly common, but move in their own squads.

Sappers-Like real life sappers they burrow underground to weaken walls.  They could go up to a wall and "sap."  This would destroy the wall in front of them and make a hole in the ground under the wall.  they don't just insta-destroy it.  It may take a good 30 seconds to a minute.  Rare class, one or two tops per siege as they could do a lot of damage. 

Siege operators-If siege weapons are introduced then they could be the operators of them.  Can't fight and only enough to operate what is brought as the siege weapons would do a lot of damage as it is.

Builders-The can bridge gaps with pieces of wood, but they work slowly.  They would work in tandem with the sappers to breach walls.  Once again, not a whole lot per siege.


I think this would be a good idea because then it would encourage you to deal with the problems quickly.  It would also require organized strikes to take out the special classes.  This would work very well if a tool to allow specific targets gets implemented.  It would also prevent random grunts from being able to randomly learn advance siege tower operations or being able to dig as well as a dwarf.  It would also keep the damage to property to a minimum.  If just any grunt could destroy a wall or dig then they would destroy your fort's layout in minutes and no defenses would keep them out.  If it is like this then they would be forced to protect the important classes and there would only be a few goblins doing the damage.  Plus, with suicide bombers instead of diggers, the damage would be bad enough to potentially breech, but not bad enough to permanently disfigure your fort.

Another class idea I had that is unrelated to the sieges is this:

Assassins-They can bypass traps like kobolds and move in groups of 3-4.  They are essentially suicide strike teams.  They sneak into the base (Possibly give the a one tile explosive so that they can make an entrance if needed) and try to kill the first noble of legendary they find.  This would give purpose to the guards and require higher vigilance.  If they are caught before finding a target then they go on a rampage and kill anything can until they are put down.  Basically they are slightly better than usual soldiers that have good stealth and try to kill high level figures.

This would work well if you could assign guards to anyone.  Then when a dwarf elevates to legendary in their craft then they need to be assigned guards.

Sorry if all these are old crappy ideas, my search didn't bring anything up so I thought I would post it.

[Daywalkah]

I like this idea. Builders may get annoying though. I like the Assassins since they target nobles.

[Umi]

Like I said, organized strikes.  As soon as they appear on the map have a small group go an dispatch them.  Have an anti-special-unit squad of elite dwarfs that can be sent to eliminate threats like the special classes before they make to your fort.

[neek]

Or really, the assassins should be after an enemy. Oftentimes in Legends, you read about So-and-so become an enemy of such-and-such. Noble enemies are a big asset, and should be their target.

[Tack]

I actually really like this idea... which is unusual for an internets troll like me.

Another suggestion would be to have a mass of goblin thieves who go in under the diversion of the siege and steal things. Makes for a really hectic siege environment.

[Rowanas]

Hell yes. I would prefer those to be jobs that any goblin can do rather than a specific class, but obviously like dwarves, if an unskilled goblin does anything then it's pretty crap compared to even a no-label skill goblin. Obviously the boom-goblins would need special kit, and certain other jobs would need the right tool, but any goblin should be allowed to try his hand at deactivating traps, for instance.

[Umi]

Maybe the anti-trap ones have a 100% success rate at deactivating the traps while normal ones have a 50% chance of activating the traps on themselves or deactivating it?  They can still do it, but it is a risky affair.

[Sphalerite]

The tricky bit with goblin sappers and builders is the AI.  The simple "Can I path to a dwarf" AI won't be enough.  They'll need the ability to reason "If I were to remove a wall here or place a bridge there, would I then be able to path to a dwarf?".  Not impossible, but it requires giving units the ability to consider a world map modified by hypothetical actions they might take and compare that world map to the current world map according to some goal criteria.  Although if that kind of foresight AI could be implemented, it might also help with giving dwarves the foresight to not seal themselves in while building walls.

[Bricks]

The sappers and suicide bombers have some serious issues and contention around them.

Suicide bombers imply gunpowder, which I think would be cool for some applications, but is a matter of large contention.

Destroying walls and digging is also in heavy debate, to the point where Toady has considered allowing init options for it.

Pathing, like Sphalerite said.

Digging underground to take out a wall, in the current cave-in system, is completely impossible, unless they also remove the wall, too.

I like your ideas, and hope to see them all in some form.  Some less intelligent, brute-force options would be nice, like using animals or trolls to tear down and scale walls, catapulting over walls, etc.  How should elves and humans siege (or any generic civ)?  Elves in particular would have a lot of trouble, as they don't lend themselves to any sort of constructions or digging.  Maybe lots of various animalmen.  Humans would have sophisticated siege weapons and towers, but wouldn't be very talented at underground attacks.  Damn, DF humans are boring, they need some flavor.

[Xether]

I agree with most of these ideas although the goblin bombers would mean the use of gunpowder which i think toady said wouldn't be in the game also it reminds me to much of age of wonders heh.

got few ideas of my own to add to this disscussion:

Goblin Sappers could be equiped with a shovel which only lets them dig 1 level down and the tunnel will collapse after a month or two ( to stop the map being filled with holes). instead of trying take out a wall they should just directly try enter the fort while the goblin army crawls in the tunnel behind them.

Goblin Engineers would have trap detection, trap disarming and also build bridges maybe even build siege ladders if toady would add it. Trap detection and trap disarming won't just be 100% success rate for all engineers. it can be a skill where dabbling be 5% and legionary be 100%.

Siege animals could be more numerious and more useful. Like the building destroyer tag could be expanded to include walls so trolls could become bad ass. Few new animals could be added like giant cave spiders that can crawl up walls and be mounted by goblins. Wyverns that can fly around grabbing dwarves and dropping them from above.

Goblins could bring artillary just as you said. If they do they should bring catapults But boulders should be able to destroy buildings + walls. But i always thought of goblins in dwarf fortress had to rely on other monsters to do their bidding and that they to stupid to use machines also it would take forever to move artillary from a goblin fort to the dwarf fort. So maybe some ranged artillary monster could be used..hmm lol maybe some monster that spits some acid ball at good distance.
just my 5 cents  .

[Lyrax]

Perhaps you could have a really wussy version of sapper.  A goblin who targets only "C-constructions" and begins to dismantle them via the d->n command.  Would that be cool?

[Funk]

may be Goblins with ropes/wood laders can get up low walls (no more than 3?) 1 wall hight per rope/lader.

ropes/laders can be cut/smashed by your troops.

elves can get lots of animals to back them up
fear the elves:
Giant eagle mounted bowmen
Elephant battering rams
Hippo based sea raiders
Giant lion,desert scorpion,jaguar,leopard,tiger mounted raiders

[Rafal99]

The tricky bit with goblin sappers and builders is the AI.  The simple "Can I path to a dwarf" AI won't be enough.  They'll need the ability to reason "If I were to remove a wall here or place a bridge there, would I then be able to path to a dwarf?".  Not impossible, but it requires giving units the ability to consider a world map modified by hypothetical actions they might take and compare that world map to the current world map according to some goal criteria.  Although if that kind of foresight AI could be implemented, it might also help with giving dwarves the foresight to not seal themselves in while building walls.

It is not really that complex as you may think. The way that A* pathfinding algorithm and others based on it (which DF uses too I bet) works is that you assign some cost for every tile and then find the path with the smallest total cost in quite efficient way. This is how 'restricted traffic area' in DF works, it assigns cost of 25 for every tile in it which makes pathfinding algorithm unlikely enough to path though it because it will rather go through tiles with smaller cost instead. But it can still path through restricted area if there is no better way.

Now they only thing we need to do is make pathfiding algorithm for invaders consider walls as passable but assign them high cost, appropriate to time needed to destroy / deconstruct the wall. That way invaders will prefer going around the way if it is possible but if the shortest path goes through wall, then they will come, destroy it, and then go further through the hole.
Ok maybe it is not really that simple because it will have some implications on how DF recognizes impassable areas and other stuff, and will need a lot of thinking to make it efficient, but it is definitely possible and doesn't require anything that hasn't been invented already.


Edit:
Imho the hardest thing in siege AI would be making invaders acting as an organized group which synchronizes their efforts to conquer the enemy, not as a bunch of individuals, where everyone acts on their own. So they help each other, not that one deconstructs a wall while the others mindlessly run into a trap-filled corridor... Instead they should wait a moment for him to finish his work and then use the hole in the wall (or eventually replace him if he dies before finishing the work, and then continue his effort).

[Rowanas]

Hmm. The whole siege encampment/smart siegers debate has raged on and on, but that's really what everyone needs to work out before we debate the finer points. Someone go and necro the siege threads, I've got to go and make hot chocolate for my lady playing DF

[Bricks]

Rafal99, that sounds reasonable for the 2D game, but in 3D it means that, once the invaders start seriously considering digging through a wall, they have to start checking out a lot more tiles.  Could be a lot of weird behavior, too, considering that digging down into a chamber would require digging stairs, and then building a staircase beneath or jumping down into the room below.