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[DennyTom]

Trogg is shortened version of Troglodyte, which DF has. and I never quite enjoy fantasy settings having evolution for the magical races. I prefer the "Dwarves grew out of solid stone at the creation of the world" theory. It also makes humans that much more mundane and fun cause they are the only civ that evolved to sentience hence generally being looked down on by the magical races.

They're actually unrelated. Dwarves were magically corrupted from the Earthern (which are like Dwarves only their flesh is made of stone, the Earthern were created by the Titans to be as hardy and survivable as possible), the Old Gods put the 'Curse of Flesh' on the Earthern and other earth-based races the Titans had made in order to weaken them. In the process, some of the Earthern became Iron Dwarves, with Iron for flesh and Lightning for blood, and were assimilated by the Old Gods (joining them). The other Earthern became Dwarves.

Troggs were an earlier experiement which had failed due to their physical matrix destabilising when used in high stress environments, the Titans stuffed them into the earth and tried again, creating the Earthern. So Troggs are actually entirely unrelated to Dwarves.


Supposidly the Gnomes had a similar origin, possibly from Mechagnomes (Gnome Cybermen).

The Titans also built an upgraded series of Earthern once they discovered the Curse of Flesh, which were not susceptible to it.

What are your sources? This sounds awesome but suspicious. Old source should not have anything mechanical.

[Shima]

Mechanismo (Especially clockwork, of which some early concepts for computers and robots were based on) is older than you'd think.  For example, the Antikythera machine.

As for what Neruz is saying, I'm fairly familiar with mythology and I've never heard of most of what he's saying.  Considering he mentions "Old Gods" within the context of the myth itself, I'd have to say it's likely from a d20-style game setting.  Considering that Titans ARE supposed to be the Elder Gods in Greek myth, before being overthrown.  In this case, Gaia would be the Earth Titan.  But she is more like the Earth itself, considering that Tartarus is within her (Which is where most Titans were imprisoned by the Olympian Gods, and is also the lowest level of the Underworld); which is where Adamantine (Originally a flint) comes from, due to the pain of having the Titans put into her bowels.




Greek religious beliefs were weird.

[Neruz]

I was actually referring to Dwarves and Gnomes in Warcraft mythology; as Bloogonis appeared to be responding to Deon's  post responding to Troggs (in that universe) being a race that evolved from Dwarves.

[DennyTom]

Mechanismo (Especially clockwork, of which some early concepts for computers and robots were based on) is older than you'd think.  For example, the Antikythera machine.

As for what Neruz is saying, I'm fairly familiar with mythology and I've never heard of most of what he's saying.  Considering he mentions "Old Gods" within the context of the myth itself, I'd have to say it's likely from a d20-style game setting.  Considering that Titans ARE supposed to be the Elder Gods in Greek myth, before being overthrown.  In this case, Gaia would be the Earth Titan.  But she is more like the Earth itself, considering that Tartarus is within her (Which is where most Titans were imprisoned by the Olympian Gods, and is also the lowest level of the Underworld); which is where Adamantine (Originally a flint) comes from, due to the pain of having the Titans put into her bowels.




Greek religious beliefs were weird.

Oldest clockworks that could inspire for clockwork entity (I know) are from Leonardo da Vinci, but my knowledge is propably very limited.

For the Greek mythology - Titans lived in the times of gods. There are stories about war between gods and Titans. At least Chronos was alive long ago gods started to play games with human lives.




@Neruz: Thank you, I am going to find more about it.

[Neruz]

The Warcraft mythology is surprisingly interesting and has evolved substantially over the years. It's gone from the Titans being a sort of standard 'god creator' rumour to them being a spacefaring superadvanced alien race with near-godlike powers. Less gods themselves and more technical wizards so advanced they might as well be gods.

Metzen has done a stellar job of keeping it mostly together too and keeping most of the inconsistencies and retcons to a minimun.

[ToonyMan]

I must use these things in a fortress.  From what I've read, they are breeding monstrosities.

[Neruz]

Their babies have babies.

[Chromie]

What are your sources? This sounds awesome but suspicious. Old source should not have anything mechanical.

yeah, if you want a full explanation of the (by now rather complicated) Warcraft universe cosmology check out http://www.wowwiki.com/ (a pretty good wiki database with mostly story/lore information)

The Warcraft devs have a habit of tacking the next-bit-of-story on and wrenching older stuff around until it fits, so, ymmv -- you may call it an interesting universe, you may call it a sprawling mass of retcon.

The story as it stands stars the Titans as an advanced techno-magic pantheon of creators, and races either developed from 'material' versions (dwarves and gnomes and troggs from metal and stone) or from a feral/barbarian source (humans and tauren)

Murlocs (were 'morloks' fishy? I thought they were deformed cavepeople. But it's been a long time since I've read Time Traveler. I'm guessing the name was just ... appropriated, and mushed together with mer- as in mermaid.) sort of showed up one day from the nasty deep after(?) elves wrecked the world with a big magic explosion, and cause problems in all climates.

[Neruz]

The Warcraft devs have a habit of tacking the next-bit-of-story on and wrenching older stuff around until it fits, so, ymmv -- you may call it an interesting universe, you may call it a sprawling mass of retcon.

Actually, considering Warcraft's origins and the length of time for which it has been going, Metzen has done remarkably well.

Compare it to say, Warhammer...

[Dohon]

The Warcraft devs have a habit of tacking the next-bit-of-story on and wrenching older stuff around until it fits, so, ymmv -- you may call it an interesting universe, you may call it a sprawling mass of retcon.

Actually, considering Warcraft's origins and the length of time for which it has been going, Metzen has done remarkably well.

Compare it to say, Warhammer...

IMO, Metzen is no more or less fallible than GW. On the contrary. While GW dropped the Squats, Metzen resurrected an entire race from the dead (Draenei). Squats were written out, but Draenei were written in (going from a race that was annihilated without a huge fight to a race that actually caused their adversaries, the Orcs, bloody heavy losses). Both GW and Metzen explained their reasons to a rather miffed fanbase.

Metzen (and his team) is (are) a fantastic creative writer, but so are the folks at GW. And Dan Abnett rules them all. The Emperor Protects.

[Osdeath]

1 dwarf dead and another with a couple of yellow wounds (and a brown to the brain) before i actually had to build walls around my 2 buildings (it's only autumn, first year, no migrations yet) to keep my remaining dwarves alive, i just hope the migration brings people who can fight, because otherwise, they're all gonna be dead pretty damn quickly...

[Neruz]

The Warcraft devs have a habit of tacking the next-bit-of-story on and wrenching older stuff around until it fits, so, ymmv -- you may call it an interesting universe, you may call it a sprawling mass of retcon.

Actually, considering Warcraft's origins and the length of time for which it has been going, Metzen has done remarkably well.

Compare it to say, Warhammer...

IMO, Metzen is no more or less fallible than GW. On the contrary. While GW dropped the Squats, Metzen resurrected an entire race from the dead (Draenei). Squats were written out, but Draenei were written in (going from a race that was annihilated without a huge fight to a race that actually caused their adversaries, the Orcs, bloody heavy losses). Both GW and Metzen explained their reasons to a rather miffed fanbase.

Metzen (and his team) is (are) a fantastic creative writer, but so are the folks at GW. And Dan Abnett rules them all. The Emperor Protects.

The Draenei are the only major lore hiccup in the series though, and Metzen flat out admitted that he forgot about the previously established lore in relation to them. He's good, but he's only human.

[Dohon]

Aye, he is only human. It took me some time to get over the Draenei shock though (since I played and read all the Warcraft games to death), but I'm a fluff nut. :p

Warcraft is a very very very deep universe. World of Warcraft is expanding it (although, some new additions seem a bit forced, written so to have new content) and I can only cheer on that. But WoW is only ... what, 4 years old? Warhammer is around since the 80's, that's almost 25 years of Lore. I think Warcraft might be suffering from some inconsistenties in 20 years or so.

Fact is, GW was dead stupid to cancel the deal with Blizzard back in the days of Warcraft 1. If they had allowed them some freeway, GW would be raking in the dough right now. Their loss though. :p

[Neruz]

Fact is, GW was dead stupid to cancel the deal with Blizzard back in the days of Warcraft 1. If they had allowed them some freeway, GW would be raking in the dough right now. Their loss though. :p

Urban ledgend, never happened. At least that's the official word from both GW and Blizzard,  they could be lying, but it seems unlikely.


I'm a long-time fan of Warcraft, one of my earliest memories is of playing Warcraft: Orcs and Humans. I'll admit when the Draenei were announced i did sort of go "Wut" but when i actually looked at how much had been written about them i realised that it really wasn't very much at all; they were basically a footnote, so i was cool with them getting retconned so hard.

[The Navigator]

Oh. My. God.

I think I made a mistake putting in the graphics. There are now over 40 cats charging headlong at my fortress. Vicious, vicious cats. I'm sending out some spearmen to meet them on the plains. Armok be with them!