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[Craftling]

Possibly, in order to add a little bit more depth into the game, I would like to be able to set my own laws.
Dwarves cannot have possession of X object.
Dwarves are not allowed to do X
Dwarves must do X
If Dwarves do not like a law they can appeal it to the manager. If enough of them do not like a specific law they could form a mob and hunt down the noble in charge of it.
Thoughts?

[Bricks]

Basically, you want to play a noble?  You bastard.

I don't think it would be appropriate for fort mode, but assuming you can play a noble in some other fashion (like becoming one through adventure mode), you should be able to abuse your power.

[Silverionmox]

Nobles and administrators (or at least the king) should be able to set laws with regards to clothing, marriage, inheritance, namegiving, table manners, dining room privileges, use of stimulants, the way in which nobles and administrators are adressed, the uniform of the royal guard, allowed/forbidden meals, etc. etc.

Priest and guildmasters could issue rules for their followers/guild members respectively. We'll need  to decide who can and can't override someone else's rules.

I think the player should be able to issue rules like that (what was his role, again?). It would make sense to let the dwarves accumulate trust/pride in Armok, the fortress' providence, the nobility, whatever... Any law decreed by the player would diminish that. It could be increased by high status projects, wealth, vanquished enemies etc. to make the player work a bit for his whims to become law.

[Bricks]

But why would a player use it?  What does it contribute to the game?  You don't have a room, so you can't demand certain furniture or room qualities; if you want to forbid the sale of a certain item, or promote importing another, or switch industries, you have that power.  It would be an arbitrary "make the game more confusing" button.

'O'rders are probably the closest in-game feature to this, and they serve fundamental purposes; occasionally they are stop-gaps for forthcoming features.

If you want to play a noble, then ask for the ability to play a noble, not to muck up fort mode.

[Silverionmox]

Because these are things that make people different. If you play a fortress that worships the god of fire, you might want to forbid any clothing that isn't yellow, red, orange or black, or make spices in every meal mandatory.
On a more practical level, you can mandate plump helmets in every meal because you have a lot of them, and don't want to use up all your other ingredients in a single meal, given that food preferences are varied.

We can determine the uniforms of squads in the next version, we can choose the colour and material of furniture, we can choose between different types of clothing/food, etc. The manager already is effectively the player mandating things to be constructed. There's no reason not to extend it to laws as well, as soon as we have more of them.

[Bricks]

Because these are things that make people different. If you play a fortress that worships the god of fire, you might want to forbid any clothing that isn't yellow, red, orange or black, or make spices in every meal mandatory.
On a more practical level, you can mandate plump helmets in every meal because you have a lot of them, and don't want to use up all your other ingredients in a single meal, given that food preferences are varied.

We can determine the uniforms of squads in the next version, we can choose the colour and material of furniture, we can choose between different types of clothing/food, etc. The manager already is effectively the player mandating things to be constructed. There's no reason not to extend it to laws as well, as soon as we have more of them.

But those aren't really laws.  Those are orders - followed to the letter without question or heed of consequence.  Unless you want your hammerer to start plastering people for wearing blue.

[Zulaf]

Unless you want your hammerer to start plastering people for wearing blue.

Now your starting to get it.


EDIT: I thought maybe I should contribute.... So yes i like this idea, although I also thought this would be how the game would be sooner or later.

I mean your the "God-Emperor" so why shouldn't you be able to do this? Of course as said above resistance/obstacles to your whims would be good, maybe if there to radical you would get out right denial to them, But how to implement this without it seeming too.... cheesy?.... mmm cheese.... I forget if this is going to be implemented or not but if so then it will go good with it. If you get to actual BE the highest ranking noble then this is how it could work.

[Silverionmox]

But those aren't really laws.  Those are orders - followed to the letter without question or heed of consequence.  Unless you want your hammerer to start plastering people for wearing blue.

There should be more diverse punishments, from a stern reprimand and fines to beard-shaving and torture.

What's the difference between a law and an order?

[darkrider2]

omg... laws would be epic.

and its as simple as code. If ____, then _____

If target A death, then target B spawn

If Urist steals rations of food, then Urist is chained up for 1 day. (the chain being the lure chain for goblins)

Or more radical. Like having a coliseum deathmatch between convicted felons.

[Timst]

IMO, orders (pull lever, attack this enemy, make bed...) should be followed to the letter, whereas laws (don't eat that, don't wear this, etc.) could be violated by some dwarves, and therefore they could be punished. Dwarves keep their free will with laws, but orders are the true word of god that you can't even think about not obeying.

[Bricks]

and its as simple as code. If ____, then _____

Are you saying that programming is equivalent to writing English-grammar syllogisms, or that programing is as easy as coding? 

Am I the only one who steadfastly opposes this?  It doesn't fit into the idea of the player as the fortress planner/manager at all, so I guess I really shouldn't worry about it being implemented.  Every reason in favor of this seems to boil down to "I want to submit dwarves to arbitrary violence on demand," major exception being those rules which should be orders, not laws.  Fort mode != god mode.

[darkrider2]

Well I'm not saying that actual laws are like code, thats ridiculous, but the implementation of it into this game would be like code... (actually it WILL be since it is a computer game... >,<)

Laws would be an amazing way to create diversity in the forts and most of all to have a crapload of fun. Because I really want to see my dwarves disgraced with the complete removal of their beard after committing a crime.

[Granite26]

Am I the only one who steadfastly opposes this?  It doesn't fit into the idea of the player as the fortress planner/manager at all, so I guess I really shouldn't worry about it being implemented.  Every reason in favor of this seems to boil down to "I want to submit dwarves to arbitrary violence on demand," major exception being those rules which should be orders, not laws.  Fort mode != god mode.

It depends... a lot of this is potential for abuse, but cultural norms are really just laws themselves...  Take clothing for example:

Don't wear shorts in public:  Strong culture in some places.
Must wear burkha:  Strong culture in some places, law in others (by civ)
Mustn't wear saggy pants: Law by noble with the intent of punishing a subgroup.
Dwarves going outside must be wearing coats: Smart rule by a benevelent spirit of the fortress.

The question isn't 'should we allow players to put arbitrary laws on the books' but 'how do we allow players to nudge dwarves in the right direction'.

We already create a large number of silly laws.  Dwarves don't go outside, dwarves collect refuse, etc, etc.  I figure that eventually there's going to need to be a standard risk/reward structure at the dwarf level, and that culture, civ and site rules, noble mandates, and player wishes are all going to be calculated into this, preferably in a standardized way.

Some things the players are going to continue to need near god control in (don't go outside), even if that's eventually toned down (but my cat is trapped! I must save it!)  Others, serve as good nudge with the severity determined by how much control we're allowed to have (third world villages enforcing tribal dress in it's citizenry in order to preserve tourist dollars).

In short, being able to say 'All dwarves will wear pink blouses or they will be hammered' is maybe a bit dumb, but there's good stuff in the framework that could add a lot to the game (and standardize a lot of motivational elements) if it's properly game-balanced.

[Craftling]

Am I the only one who steadfastly opposes this?  It doesn't fit into the idea of the player as the fortress planner/manager at all, so I guess I really shouldn't worry about it being implemented.  Every reason in favor of this seems to boil down to "I want to submit dwarves to arbitrary violence on demand," major exception being those rules which should be orders, not laws.  Fort mode != god mode.

Laws are what would seperate fortress from each other. If I want to have some Lawless backwater town then I would be able to remove laws as I wish. Or if I wanted to have some strict regime I would be able to achieve this. It adds more depth to  your fortress and it makes it more yours.

[Grendus]

But those aren't really laws.  Those are orders - followed to the letter without question or heed of consequence.  Unless you want your hammerer to start plastering people for wearing blue.

There should be more diverse punishments, from a stern reprimand and fines to beard-shaving and torture.

What's the difference between a law and an order?

I like some of where you're going. Mideval times routinely had humiliation punishments, everything from the stocks to branding. With beards finally implemented, beard shaving might be an interesting option for punishment (dwarves who aren't close friends laugh at the now bald dwarf, causing severe unhappy thoughts until the beard starts to grow back, which like being released from prison causes a strong happy thought). Another option would be being sent to "live like the elves", exile to the surface world eating nothing but raw plants and drinking water for a period of time.