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[Megaman]

once economy is 'totally' revamped I could seefurniture stores,and if a dwarf has a friend he can allow his friend to move in as a roomie and they would split the costs, for everything including the roomies bed. Then we'd have to have a dwarven bank so if the roomie's poor he can take out a loan, but that's up to toady. Anyway, maybe any constuction jobs inside the room will allow masons, carpenters, etc. to work inside and to be inside for 1 RL minute after the job's done.+3 RL seconds for every extra square they need to take to get out. Almost nothing in the suggestions forums will be implemented anyway.

[irmo]

So you'd give a bed a line of sight kinda like a person, if the bed "sees" someone, the dwarf will get an unhappy thought about someone coming in their room next time they sleep or are also "seen" by their bed. Exceptions should be made for the barracks option, friends, family (liked family that is), lovers, cleaning staff, and building staff.

Far too complicated. Just give them an unhappy thought (immediately) when anyone walks through the room. Exceptions are made for anyone else who lives in the room, and anyone who's been invited to be there via Attend Party or Attend Meeting jobs (which should allow them to be in a private dining room or office, respectively, not a bedroom). It's a fairly minor unhappy thought, so the occasional hauler dropping off furniture shouldn't be a problem--though if you are having a lot of work done (like smoothing/engraving the walls and floor) you might want to un-designate the room for the duration.

[Aquillion]

Rather than make this interact with personality traits, it would be more straightforward for rooms to just not function if they don't have walls. A patch of floor in a 10x10 barracks is not a room, even if you designate it as one. A dwarf sleeping there gets the benefit of having an assigned bed, but not a bedroom.

Disagree.  If I define a 1x1 'room' with just a bed and no walls, it is still a step up from a random bed -- it is a cot that a dwarf can rent and know that it belongs to them.

In fact, this has historical precedent -- in the real world, until very recently, if you went to an inn (except the really high-end ones), you'd be renting a bed, not a room, and generally it'd be a bed in a room with lots of other people sleeping in it, too.  Allowing the player to rent out individual beds as 1x1 rooms is entirely legitimate.

Of course, it shouldn't grant as much of a happy thought as a real room, but I would say that it's a step up from sleeping in a bed homeless shelter (which is what the barracks is.)  The 1x1 bed may not be private or a 'real' room, but it still belongs to you, won't have other people sleeping in it messing it up, and so on.

Other rooms should obviously work without walls, but I assume you weren't talking about them -- if I define a big open-air barracks somewhere, there's no reason dwarves couldn't use it to train.  An open-air dining hall might actually be better under some circumstances (if it has a good view, say.)

[lucusLoC]

I think the LOS while changing has some potential. The mechanic is already in, so computatonaly there is very little cost. It would allow the designe of rooms with privacy nooks, and display areas. Just as long a dorfs only change by their containers this could work. The only problems i see are workers in the room (masosns getting stone for example), path through problems and the "public room, private bed" issue. Perhaps a seperate designation for assignable bed vs assigable room?

Lets expand on this a bit abd see where it goes.

[G-Flex]

Actually, I really don't think LoS is done all the time in fortress mode, for obvious reasons; LoS on 120 units at once gets a little pricey.

For those still arguing that an unhappy thought should just come from people entering the room... I thought I already addressed that? I mean, if my bedroom is "defined" as a 3x3 space in the middle of an open area, with my bed in the middle, I'll still care about random guys wandering by, two tiles away. Sure, they don't technically enter "my room", but that's not really the point. The point is that I wouldn't like it. Concern for privacy doesn't magically stop at some arbitrary line drawn in the ground.


Obviously, none of this would really apply for things like communal dining halls and barracks, although certainly dwarves (civilians, at least) should prefer proper bedrooms to sleeping in a communal setting, especially if they're private types. This is already mostly the case, I think.

[Nivim]

 The FPS hit for line of sight is minimal compared to pathing calculation. This is pretty obvious when you have a very large number of dwarves with no jobs, and you assign them all to fish simultaneously. You can tell that line of sight is calculated all the time when you mod in every race to send thieves. Thieves only get missed when there isn't anyone there to see them.

 There is a fairly specific line drawn for privacy. Usually this is a door or screen, but in the same room (for roommates) or while camping the line drawn is just that which gives equal space to each person. If you are at work and someone walks in front of your house, or even up your driveway and back down again; you will not care. If said person picks the lock to your door, walks around your house a few times, then exits and carefully locks the door; you will not care. You might care quite a bit when you notice foot prints that aren't your own, though.

[G-Flex]

The FPS hit for line of sight is minimal compared to pathing calculation. This is pretty obvious when you have a very large number of dwarves with no jobs, and you assign them all to fish simultaneously. You can tell that line of sight is calculated all the time when you mod in every race to send thieves. Thieves only get missed when there isn't anyone there to see them.

I can remember Toady saying that line of sight is, in fact, not calculated constantly, and that this is why it isn't used to calculate how much of the new underground features are made visible at once. I can try to find the quote, if you want.

[Aquillion]

In any case, it wouldn't actually be necessary to calculate LOS all the time for this.  Just have a dwarf do one quick check at key points in their room -- waking up and going to sleep.  This is logical; dwarves probably won't mind as much if visitors pass through while they're up, but most people would be annoyed by people constantly there when you're trying to sleep.

And of course we only care about who the dwarf can see, not who can see the dwarf (if they don't know, they don't get an unhappy thought.)  So it's only for individual dwarves at comparatively rare intervals, not a constant check-every-step thing.

And, aside from noise, dwarves logically won't notice people passing through when they are asleep.

Similar things could be done with other rooms if you want dwarves to desire privacy for them, although I'm not sure that's always needed.  Basically, just check LOS whenever you start a new job in the room

Actually, though, do we really want this?  Suppose I have a room with a window -- will that make my dwarf upset?  With an LOS check, it would.

It can be kind of hard to look at cases like these and envision all the various room layouts a dwarf could have.  What if I have a room built into a cliff, open to the air in the side?  That seems like a nice thing in some ways -- will the dwarf get angry if they can see people down below?

[Granite26]

seems simple... Check all the edges of the room.  If the path from one edge to another involves going through the room, it's semi-private.  If there's no way to get from one to the other without going through, it's not private at all.

(obvious quibbles for owning multiple rooms in sequence and whatnot.)

Basically, you can do whatever world spanning pathfinding you want at designation, because it's once, and the game isn't running at the time.  Oh, and you only run it once!

[BlckKnght]

In any case, it wouldn't actually be necessary to calculate LOS all the time for this.  Just have a dwarf do one quick check at key points in their room -- waking up and going to sleep.  This is logical; dwarves probably won't mind as much if visitors pass through while they're up, but most people would be annoyed by people constantly there when you're trying to sleep.

And of course we only care about who the dwarf can see, not who can see the dwarf (if they don't know, they don't get an unhappy thought.)  So it's only for individual dwarves at comparatively rare intervals, not a constant check-every-step thing.

And, aside from noise, dwarves logically won't notice people passing through when they are asleep.

Similar things could be done with other rooms if you want dwarves to desire privacy for them, although I'm not sure that's always needed.  Basically, just check LOS whenever you start a new job in the room

Actually, though, do we really want this?  Suppose I have a room with a window -- will that make my dwarf upset?  With an LOS check, it would.

It can be kind of hard to look at cases like these and envision all the various room layouts a dwarf could have.  What if I have a room built into a cliff, open to the air in the side?  That seems like a nice thing in some ways -- will the dwarf get angry if they can see people down below?

I think the window issue is fine: The LOS check would have a limited distance (maybe 10 tiles?). If your bedroom window opens out directly onto the crowded communal statue garden you'd be pretty unhappy about it, but if it opens out onto a bottomless pit you won't need to care about the dwarves on the opposite rim (DF is not a Hitchcock film and there are no binoculars). The check might also only consider dwarves on the same z-level to make cliffside bedrooms practical (there are no peeping-Ursists to go looking into second floor windows).

I still think the issue of people passing through your private room should be addressed in addition to the LOS check when going to sleep and changing clothes.  This would be to address the "personal space" issue: things like strange footprints, messed up personal belongings, etc. If theft is implemented, then having closed doors and other security related stuff would add value by limiting the amount they can get in to mess with your stuff (actually having them steal things would be an additional negative thought, but rummaged drawers are sure to be upsetting even if nothing is taken). The fortress guard might detain anyone seen opening a door to somebody else's room when doing a "steal stuff" job (this would be another LOS check, but one only performed when the breaking and entering was taking place).

I don't think exceptions to the privacy checks need to be made for construction workers either. Anyone who's had workers in their house when they're away can probably understand why I think so: they inevitably disrupt things, even if they're trying to be respectful of your property (and just imagine the fun that could come from a kleptomaniac engraver or a lazy furniture hauler who decides to take a quick nap on your bed after delivering your new coffer). Having a random mason wander into your bedroom to pick up some stone shouldn't be pleasant either (and it would be more incentive to clear the scrap rock out rooms before dwarves move in).

There is always matter of degree to the unhappiness, of course, so I don't think dwarves should be tantruming over privacy, though it might be the straw that breaks an already miserable dwarf's emotional back. It might be best to actually think of it the other way, and give a happy though if the dwarf has private space and secure belongings (where "private" and "secure" are defined by the lack of privacy invasions over some period of time).

[Dwaref]

i feel dwarves should value personal space.
an enclosed room that is silent, a window that may be barred, a light source that is extinguished, should be thought of a real luxury, unlike just having a bed shoved up against a wall, or worse yet-a communal bed full of sweaty wrestlers!

currently dwarves don't really have any activities that demand any sort of 'privacy', but they SHOULD have a need for personal space or suffer.

just to calm down, and get restful sleep. to make sweet bearded love. to take a dump without the poop-hauler standing behind him waiting to take the bucket.

all of this stuff i'd like.

[Phoenyx]

i feel dwarves should value personal space.

What if we do just that. According to the wiki, floor and wall values are already valued differently. What if we asked for that difference to be even larger then it currently is? That way, in general, rooms with walls in it are more valued then the same size room with only floors.

The dwarves that happen to "value privacy" simple like doors and walls more then they like floors and windows. Just give them an additional modifier on those items in their rooms, like you would for any other of their likes.

[G-Flex]

i feel dwarves should value personal space.

What if we do just that. According to the wiki, floor and wall values are already valued differently. What if we asked for that difference to be even larger then it currently is? That way, in general, rooms with walls in it are more valued then the same size room with only floors.

The dwarves that happen to "value privacy" simple like doors and walls more then they like floors and windows. Just give them an additional modifier on those items in their rooms, like you would for any other of their likes.

Responded to this already. It would be a good approach, but falls apart when you realize that the walls wouldn't necessarily have to be in sane locations. A block of walls inside the room, for instance, would work just as well.

Personally, I think it's more than about simple value anyway. Higher value in one area doesn't mean you'll ignore some other. For instance, I'll still be pissed if my bedroom has no furniture in it even IF the floors and walls are made of platinum. In general, I guess you could expand some of my point to say that dwarves should care about specific things about their rooms and furnishings (and so forth), not just the overall monetary value of what they own.

[Rowanas]

i feel dwarves should value personal space.

What if we do just that. According to the wiki, floor and wall values are already valued differently. What if we asked for that difference to be even larger then it currently is? That way, in general, rooms with walls in it are more valued then the same size room with only floors.

The dwarves that happen to "value privacy" simple like doors and walls more then they like floors and windows. Just give them an additional modifier on those items in their rooms, like you would for any other of their likes.

Responded to this already. It would be a good approach, but falls apart when you realize that the walls wouldn't necessarily have to be in sane locations. A block of walls inside the room, for instance, would work just as well.

I already make rooms with walls stripped across it because the value goes up.

[G-Flex]

Yeah, that's a good example of what I mean. Doing something like that still results in a god-awful room by any reasonable standard, assuming that there aren't any (or enough) walls on the actual perimeter.