Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Bricks]

If the local sphere is unicorn and the dwarf is pissed, then the result might be that the rubble runs off in a random direction, goring anyone and anything in it's path.

Unicorn power?

I think a wizard noble should have some player direction.  Like, nicely asking for favors.

[Time Kitten]

Local spheres?

well, let's expand on that idea to the spheres of the god that particular dwarf worships, mayhaps?

[Nivim]

... Laws and Formulae are practically synonyms....  And a formula with +Rand(x) is still a formula

Yeah, because it is a game it has to be made up of calculations for the computer. But I guess what I was attempting to say was "to keep such things from turning into a game mechanic", like was stated already. Also, it would have to be a weighted random number...and laws and formula aren't the same thing; just look at legislature and you can see that some things just can't be placed into formula, or shouldn't be anyway.

[killaconcarnage]

you know what shod happan insted of a mage comming to yor fort one of yor random dwarfs will just do a spell 

like URISTmcdwarf fights goblin URISTmcdwarf shot lighting of of his hand and killd the goblin also we shod not be told when it ends up in the game

[Hummingbird]

you know what shod happan insted of a mage comming to yor fort one of yor random dwarfs will just do a spell 

like URISTmcdwarf fights goblin URISTmcdwarf shot lighting of of his hand and killd the goblin also we shod not be told when it ends up in the game

Pardon me?

[Jude]

The whole point of magic to me is that it CAN'T be neatly explained by a set of simple rules. Otherwise it would just be part of science.

[dragnar]

It seems there are two types of magic system people want:

1. unpredictable magic, with no set laws and random, unexplainable effects.
2. predictable magic, perhaps not quite scientific, but at least possible to understand.

In the first system magic would be invoked by strange, complicated rituals with semi-random effects, the wizards merely guiding magic, not controlling it.

In the second system, the wizards cast magic more directly, each spell always doing the same thing, just with minor variations in power or things like that. The magic would actually end up being very similar to the first system because of the limited control the player would have over the wizard.

Say you order your wizard to attack a squad of goblins, in the first system, the wizard casts a spell that will attack the goblins, but in an unpredictable manner. In the second system, the wizard would cast a spell, knowing exactly what he was doing, to attack the goblins.

The only difference is that in the first system the uncertainty in the spellcasting comes from magic itself, while in the second it comes from the fickle moods of the wizard.

[qwertyuiopas]

The first Armok had extensive control over magic.

Adventure mode use will require that the rules of magic can be at least partially learned(A way to at least select the general results, such as (elements/spheres) (Target creature/area of the creature) though the exact results may vary.

Example: a cold-based effect of sufficient strength should freeze at least half of the flesh layers of the "target" creature, and maybe the area around them.


However, Toady already has plans, and I believe that it is quite likely that those plans give a significant ammount of control to the adventurer, though not the standard game's ultimate control...

[Nivim]

 I thought we decided on a system that was a combination of the two, involving a mash up of all sphere and mood variables that cause explainable effects. The laws are still set within a world, but will change between worlds.

*Many, many errors posting, had to log out, then sees new post and decides to not make edits based upon it.*

[shadowclasper]

Soooo... basically it's the difference between Iron Heroes style magic (where you just draw power, shape it by will, then unleash is), and Eberron style (where it takes the place of technology).

Just throwing my two cents in, but for fortress mode I think it should be divided up into different kind of professions much like military classes >_> you'd need a Arcanary (or something) to make the appropriate stuff though...

Different Job types (All under the heading "Wizard")
Mage: Fire balls, lighting, ice, the battle stuff, all should be dangerous so you don't deploy these guys lightly.
Priest: Powers more affected by their god, but generally healing, warding against hostiles (either by making areas temporarily "fear causing" for certain creatures, or by boosting over all armor on certain dwarves), blessing stuff temporarily that within their god's influence (if you check a god through a dwarf's relationship screen, it tells you domains)
Artificer: Makes mundane magical items, kinda like artifacts, but FAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRR less powerful.

Mage and Priest could be equiped with totems, staves, and wands. each with a different type of spell. (Mage: totem=ice, wand=fire, stave=lightning; Priest: totem=blessing, wand=warding, stave=healing.)

There could be random variables in how much protection is given for example, or maybe even a back fire where it does the opposite of what's intended.

[darkflagrance]

It wouldn't be that simple, especially since this game doesn't have "hit points".

I meant that that is how it seems to the wizards, the players only know what happens when their wizard cast's a certain spell (preferably different from wizard to wizard)

For example, while playing wizard mode your character researches a new spell, and you receive a message telling what spheres it is linked to, then you still have to cast it to see what it does. The wizard knows what to do, you can only tell him when to do it.

Why would we be able to tell the wizard when to cast spells? That's completely against the nature of the game. The wizard should cast spells on his own. For example, if his food isn't well-cooked for then nth time and he's a bit grumpy, he might very well try to invoke a fire-related spell on the food, with all consequences related to that.

Speaking of how dwarves are the spellcasters, unlike the player, I actualy think spells should be based upon intent rather then upon effect. Let's seay a pile of rubble is blocking the way and a magicaly adept character wants it out of the way. He'll invoke magic with that intent. The actual spell is then something that can go either way, based upon the local sphere, the dwarf's mood and his preferences. If he's happy, the rubble might softly slide aside. If the local sphere is fire, it might start to burn. If the local sphere is unicorn and the dwarf is pissed, then the result might be that the rubble runs off in a random direction, goring anyone and anything in it's path.

This fooling around with the wizard noble is all well and good for fortress mode, but I imagine that wizard mode will be more about meddling with the fabric of dimensions than trying to make sure your wizard duke has a window in his bedroom - i.e. free of such trivialities and limited only by the obstacles that reality itself places in the wizard/player's way. Might be better if the wizard of wizard mode is nigh-invincible to normal forces, rather than a mere minion, but once killed by the forces of chaos he unleashes is irreplaceable, and probably results in defeat.

[Nivim]

Soooo... basically it's the difference between Iron Heroes style magic (where you just draw power, shape it by will, then unleash is), and Eberron style (where it takes the place of technology).

*Predictable, simple system that can't be integrated into DF's randomization system.*

 Read this thread, there are many good things you aught to see. If you've read the thread, think about what you've read.

@ DarkFlagrance - Well, I imagine wizards in Fortress mode to be divided between rare powerful nobles that do all kinds of cool things depending on what they want and what is needed (they are the once in 500-1000 years ones who are born with loads of power and potential), and the wizards that learn/gain it as a skill through effort, deals, gods, or chance. I think there should be a chance in adventure mode for you to spawn with a noble-wizard, but normally you're going to put some points in the skill for a magic school and go looking for a power source. The power source could be gained in any number of ways, but would probably be the first hurdle of being a wizard. Perhaps if you get good roles you can start with a small power source, and probably would have a few slightly magical items every time.

[dragnar]

Interesting idea, so your saying that wizard mode must be earned, not just started like dwarf of adventurer modes?

[Neonivek]

I know I say this often but I'd love to stay away from Priest style magic as much as possible. I think this is my 5th time saying this in this topic.

Priests don't do magic, they do one of two things
1) They ask their god for favor
2) They use the boons their gods give to them

Both which should heavily rely on the god and not be a sort of spell system. Most of the time gods shouldn't even pay attention to their priests (unless it is a particularly god heavy setting). It also should be more universal rather then specific to priests (since priests devote their lives to the gods they do tend to get first dibs)

Even if a priest were answered by a god it doesn't mean what happens next will be adventagous or even a true gift.
-God of Death: I have destroyed them
-Priest: Thanks Deathy
-God of Death: Thanks? Ohh no no no my friend, you will have to pay it back.
-Priest: How?
-God of Death: You will be my reaper
--Essentially you lose the priest at that point and possibly gain an enemy (the priest)

Boons should also, if they are rewarded at all, be specific to that god and usually a sign of devout or heroic service. Not a sort of priestly power set.

[Nivim]

Interesting idea, so your saying that wizard mode must be earned, not just started like dwarf of adventurer modes?

 Well, you'd start by simply putting points into a magic skill (be it either just Magic or assorted schools of it), and if it was your highest you'd start with the fruits of your long, hard work without a power source (2-4 objects whose power will vary depending on the ambient magical energy present in your starting town). You'd probably want to have a couple other skills for the purposes of survival (wrestler, shield & sword or staff [we aught to have staves with wizards]), and you'd go about finding a source of magic. As a trained wizard, you would have knowledge of basic magical herbs, reagents, and entities (probably accessed by a help-like memory file or a book), this would tell you where to start looking in your current world. Most players would probably collect every useful herb reagent they can find and go to a secluded place to work on magic. From this point, they would either try and directly use their reagents and their own will (slow and steady method), or make a deal with some entity (fast and risky method). A place where reagents are more plentiful, a place where there is a lot of ambient magic (sphere'd), or a place where you can meet an entity in person (better define entity for this case; unicorns, satyr groups, demons, elementals, gods, more demons, magic dragons, mysterious undefined forces, ect...) will make for a more successful wizard.

 On gods, I agree with you Neonivek, but I always thought of gods as a pool of spiritual/magic energy that all those who have faith in contribute to. People who are really devoted get to draw from that sentient pool more, so priests would get some free stuff (small miracles, they cost when they are large). On the subject of the priest itself, I never thought of them as ones who would go out using their powers for adventuring, but instead lead, help, and bless a community. So it would be rare for them to get into a situation where they're abilities would have such a high cost.