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[dragnar]

Earlier in this thread the quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." was mentioned, but there is a second, related quote, "any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology"

I think magic should be a science, but a badly understood one. Wizards would be those who study the way their world works, and their spells would never fail unless they were experimental.

This does not mean that magic will always be predictable, in our world nature is extremely complicated, no one understands it all. the world follows set laws, but we still can't predict everything that happens, magic should be the same, especially when you throw gods into the mix. apart from the lovecraftian example above, what about gods like xom in crawl?

[Sergius]

Earlier in this thread the quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." was mentioned, but there is a second, related quote, "any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology"

I think magic should be a science, but a badly understood one. Wizards would be those who study the way their world works, and their spells would never fail unless they were experimental.

This does not mean that magic will always be predictable, in our world nature is extremely complicated, no one understands it all. the world follows set laws, but we still can't predict everything that happens, magic should be the same, especially when you throw gods into the mix. apart from the lovecraftian example above, what about gods like xom in crawl?

The second quote is a bit of a play on the first one, and it's used in fantasy settings (as opposed to sci-fi settings). It presumes that, in that universe, people don't understand "technology", but magic is a well known, measured, and just plain obvious aspect of life. So, any "sufficiently advanced magic" becomes indistinguishable from "technology", pretty much meaning, obscure and strange. Magic = known. Technology = unknown.

This was used to great effect in Discworld. When someone with a lay background asks about how some weird piece of tech works, they give up the explanation and just say "it's Magic!", only to be replied with "oh yeah? what kind?". That's why everyone in the Disc, when trying to say something is unexplainable, they say "it's... wossname, Quantum!"

[dragnar]

I have never read the diskworld series (I really should, but haven't gotten around to it yet), but the quote I mentioned is also often used to say that advanced enough magic functions like technology, allowing high-fantasy settings to resemble sci-fi in many ways. "sufficiently advanced magic" is common, reliable, and possessing a definite, well understood source.

In other words, sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from our technology.

[Granite26]

In other words, sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from our technology.

I got ya'....

I think that's the problem most people have with magic... Anything implimented would be subject to rules, and generally a limited set of rules that quickly makes it formulas and not awe inspiring.

[dragnar]

Not awe inspiring? Is a nuclear bomb not awe inspiring? Or the international space station?

Magic may be nothing but complex formulae to the Wizards, but to everyone else it is an incredible, incomprehensible force of nature.

[Nivim]

 Magic will work by laws, and it will make sense. But one probably shouldn't put the word "formulae" to it, or relate it to magic. It's only in high fantasy (the fireball flinging wizard) that magic is that reliable. Even when one works through the complexity, the ritual, and all extraneous variables, there is still and element of uncertainty. The laws of magic are not precise like the laws of physics, for they vary based upon perception and emotion. The word "suffering" does not mean exactly the same thing to every user, and in itself is somewhat vague, so magic invoking such a sphere will not be the same every time even if it is prepared exactly the same as before. A mage's conscious and unconscious perceptions will vary with time, mood, and what else they are thinking about, and so will their magic, channeled through their mind. And the wizard's mind isn't the only to include, as perceptions of many people will define the spheres of other forces the wizard must work with. Such as a civilization [POWER].
 Because this is a game, and not an entire universe to work with, this system cannot be made ideal. But if one saves right before some magic working, and returns to that save after the working, it should not turn out the same as it did on the previous save.

[Granite26]

Magic will work by laws, and it will make sense. But one probably shouldn't put the word "formulae" to it, or relate it to magic. It's only in high fantasy (the fireball flinging wizard) that magic is that reliable.

... Laws and Formulae are practically synonyms....  And a formula with +Rand(x) is still a formula

Not awe inspiring? Is a nuclear bomb not awe inspiring? Or the international space station?

Magic may be nothing but complex formulae to the Wizards, but to everyone else it is an incredible, incomprehensible force of nature.

Good point, but I think people are worried about the Wiki page saying 'and then you do this, and it shoots a fireball that does 4 damage', which, no matter how awe inspiring to the people watching, is still reduced to a game mechanic.

[dragnar]

It wouldn't be that simple, especially since this game doesn't have "hit points".

I meant that that is how it seems to the wizards, the players only know what happens when their wizard cast's a certain spell (preferably different from wizard to wizard)

For example, while playing wizard mode your character researches a new spell, and you receive a message telling what spheres it is linked to, then you still have to cast it to see what it does. The wizard knows what to do, you can only tell him when to do it.

[Granite26]

It wouldn't be that simple, especially since this game doesn't have "hit points".

]]
But it does....

[dragnar]

not visible or easy to calculate ones.

[Granite26]

No more difficult to calculate than the combat formulae, and they're all listed on the wiki, including a damage rating for each weapon.

[Sergius]

Yeah, in the real world we all know that a +steel spear+ does exactly 186.2 points of damage, but we can't know how much a fireball exactly does, that would just be formulaic.

[Bricks]

No more difficult to calculate than the combat formulae, and they're all listed on the wiki, including a damage rating for each weapon.

Which still doesn't provide any sort of predictive power as to how a fight will actually turn out.  I think we can assume that, even if there were a -4 HP Fireball attack, the number itself would only be a relative indicator of strength under ideal conditions.

Presumably, a fireball-conjuring spell will be totally possible, but it would quickly flag you as a wizard.  I imagine prejudices and fears of wizards would be commonplace, so working in subtle or deceptive ways (see Threetoe's Moclem story) would be to your favor.

[Virex]

It wouldn't be that simple, especially since this game doesn't have "hit points".

I meant that that is how it seems to the wizards, the players only know what happens when their wizard cast's a certain spell (preferably different from wizard to wizard)

For example, while playing wizard mode your character researches a new spell, and you receive a message telling what spheres it is linked to, then you still have to cast it to see what it does. The wizard knows what to do, you can only tell him when to do it.

Why would we be able to tell the wizard when to cast spells? That's completely against the nature of the game. The wizard should cast spells on his own. For example, if his food isn't well-cooked for then nth time and he's a bit grumpy, he might very well try to invoke a fire-related spell on the food, with all consequences related to that.

Speaking of how dwarves are the spellcasters, unlike the player, I actualy think spells should be based upon intent rather then upon effect. Let's seay a pile of rubble is blocking the way and a magicaly adept character wants it out of the way. He'll invoke magic with that intent. The actual spell is then something that can go either way, based upon the local sphere, the dwarf's mood and his preferences. If he's happy, the rubble might softly slide aside. If the local sphere is fire, it might start to burn. If the local sphere is unicorn and the dwarf is pissed, then the result might be that the rubble runs off in a random direction, goring anyone and anything in it's path.

[dragnar]

I didn't mean for the wizard to never do anything without the player, just that he could be given general orders, same as the dwarves.