Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[lucusLoC]

There are about a million threads about magic in exsistance, and i really do not have strong oppinions on any of them, with one exception: magic should not be random, chaotic or obfuscated.

Let me explain: any suficiently advanced technology is indistiguishable from magic. The magic in DF should respect that. To those who know magic, and the construction of magic devices, it should be something drab. Like an accountant who understands the tax code, simple to him, mystical to the rest of us.

I do not know how to acomplish that, nor do i have a strong oppinion on the structure. I just want to avoid the harry potter like "this does that, no one knows why, but we can make a ring that does the same thing. somehow." It just seems tacky to me. I want something more like the "wheel of time" type magic. "This does that because of this" but even deeper and more well explained.

Just my oppinion. That is all.

[Rowanas]

Thank you for outlining your opinion.

Personally I think you are entirely and unashamedly wrong in every respect. It's like you took my beliefs about how magic should work and then elfed them.

[Dante]

Amazing. In two posts you have summed up exactly why

There are about a million threads about magic in exsistance

Personally, I'd prefer there to be a semi-logical / well-explained / researchish lore behind it all, such as lucusLoC suggests, but for that to have little or no bearing on how magic actually pans out *in game*.

[lucusLoC]

shoot, i should have mentioned this in the OP. this is not a discussion thread, just an opinion post. there were just too many magic threads to discuss it in, and as this is the only thing i have to bring to the table i thought i would post it. for those who agree with me, take it, expand it and share it it a relevant thread that i will probably never read. for those that do not feel free to ignore.

[Capntastic]

this is not a discussion thread, just an opinion post.

Then why post them in a public discussion forum?  Why not just private message them to Toady or something?

[Neonivek]

Actually more specifically this is a Suggestion Thread

No discussions even have to take place.

[Capntastic]

'If you have improvements to suggest that you think would make your Dwarf Fortress experience more enjoyable, discuss them here.'

In your face, Neonivek!  The ball's in your court!

But more importantly, he's not really suggesting anything so much as anti-suggesting a vague notion of 'random' magic.   Which I agree with, ostensibly, but I don't think Toady was really heading in that direction.

[Neonivek]

What ball? You didn't contradict anything I said.

[Silverionmox]

It's a computer game, there will inevitably be logical rules behind the scenes. But why make it an accountant job? We've got bookkeepers to do those.

Advanced technology may be indistinguishable from magic, but that doesn't mean magic is indistinguishable from technology. Magic thrives on personal motivation, personal effort, conceptual symbolism and secrecy. Technology is exactly the opposite. You can't expect a caged demon to behave as a combustion engine. It'll try to deal with its jailors, it'll curse your progeny or it will hibernate.. or a combination of any of these.

If you make it like technology, it's not magic, but technology, and it'll lose its appeal.

[Neonivek]

One thing that I have a hard time understanding is that the Topic creator is infering that there are people who want magic to be truely random.

Truely random magic is a bit too far in my oppinion. It also seems to be something that most people would be against.

Even with artifacts, you never have control over what powers it gets, however the magic the artifact uses is always the same (unless altering itself is one of its attributes).

So how random are we speaking about? Just invoking spheres and hoping you get a possitive event?

[Grendus]

Let me explain: any suficiently advanced technology is indistiguishable from magic. The magic in DF should respect that. To those who know magic, and the construction of magic devices, it should be something drab. Like an accountant who understands the tax code, simple to him, mystical to the rest of us.

DF kind of already has this. Only dwarves have the knowledge to make steel or adamantine wafers. To the humans and goblins lucky enough to conquer a dwarven settlement, steel seems like a strange iron that's much harder. To the dwarves, it's what you get when you throw two charcoal/coke, two flux, and two iron bars into a smelter. It's common for dwarves (in fact, many players select maps specifically with iron in mind) but very rare for other players.

As for magic, I think I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment that magic, while ordered, should be exceedingly rare. I don't want a wizard noble, possibly a wizard megabeast/civ with a single person (think Gandalf selling fireworks to Bilbo) or simply adding a new mood that creates magical artifacts that inevitably cause "drama" - invasions, demands for it to be turned over to the king, jealousy towards who made it/who wields it, etc.

shoot, i should have mentioned this in the OP. this is not a discussion thread, just an opinion post. there were just too many magic threads to discuss it in, and as this is the only thing i have to bring to the table i thought i would post it. for those who agree with me, take it, expand it and share it it a relevant thread that i will probably never read. for those that do not feel free to ignore.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you can't just shut down all discussion. Those who oppose you will give their reasons why, I promise, but this isn't your forum. You can't control what gets said here, only Toady and Threetoe have that authority. So unless one of them should decide to come in here and agree with you, I think we all have the right to give our opinions should we be so inclined.

[Rowanas]

So how random are we speaking about? Just invoking spheres and hoping you get a positive event?

That's exactly what I think dwarven magi should do. You pick a sphere they know and a location, and hope it works.

[Rooster]

Not to water you all down, but in an interview Toady already said he knew how to do magic...

and there are 200+ threads about it so there is nothing new that can be said about it

[Fieari]

I don't want magic to be advanced technology.  I don't want magic to be at all reliable.  I want magic to be magic, from the root word MYSTERY, meaning "That which I don't understand".  Anything reliable is understandable, anything predicatable is understandable.  On the other hand, magic still needs to do stuff-- but it should be chaotic in the mathematic sense of slight changes in the setup leading to VASTLY different results.  The difference between summoning a tiny imp to do your bidding and summoning a spirit of fire who starts bahaving like a noble in your fort, walking down the halls like he lives there while starting fires and making demands for better furnature in its room.

Why do I want this?  Because dwarf fortress could be the first game I know of to be ABLE to do this.  What other game could you make a love potion in, and have that love potion have a non-scripted plot related effect?  What other game could you have magic that just makes people feel uncomfortably creeped out in a location?  What other magic can exact a cost of your ability to play music as a price for power?

In short, what other game can replicate FAIRY TALE magic, instead of D&D magic?

No other game has even tried.  Dwarf Fortress could do it.  Let technology be reliable.  Let magic be MAGIC.

[Rowanas]

HEAR HEAR!