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[Sergius]

What's the point of making magic if you have no control whatsoever over the result? I can see a mage saying "well, I want this tomato to grow BIG!". So, alright, there's no "Bigsby's Improved Tomato Mass Increase" spell in some book, but surely the mage has some specific intention when "casting" his magic, at least? He's not going to go "wooot TOMATO let's see what happens if I do THIS!" and start waving his hand and invoking the circles of Life and throwing magic dust everywhere.

[Neonivek]

Sergius has a point.

There needs to be SOME baseline of normacy for Magic (excluding Chaotic spells, but those are specific kinds) or else they are one of two things or both
A) Useless: Magic has little chance of doing what you want or need
B) A Time Bomb: Magic will eventually backfire, making it effectively a time bomb.

It needs to be both useful and viable as a long term character build.

[Rowanas]

It will be, but i see no reason why it can't eventually backfire. EVERYTHING IN DWARF FORTRESS IS DANGEROUS. Why should magic be any different. You set up a magma forge, but you could've done exactly the same thing with wood and less risk. Waterfalls are dangerous and lethal, when you could get the same effect by just giving everyone a larger room. nothing is necessary, and pretty much everything will eventually kill a dwarf or two, but that's what DF is all about. Discarding a decent magic system because it doesn't allow you to fireball a goblin at 50 paces every time with no risk is retarded. If you know and control how it works then it isn't fucking magic, is it?

[JoshuaFH]

What's the point of making magic if you have no control whatsoever over the result? I can see a mage saying "well, I want this tomato to grow BIG!". So, alright, there's no "Bigsby's Improved Tomato Mass Increase" spell in some book, but surely the mage has some specific intention when "casting" his magic, at least? He's not going to go "wooot TOMATO let's see what happens if I do THIS!" and start waving his hand and invoking the circles of Life and throwing magic dust everywhere.

This is what I'm thinking: Imagine technology as two gears with their teeth in eachother. You spin one gear, and the other gear will turn likewise in the predictable manner. Now imagine technology as throwing a super-bouncy ball being thrown at a target in a cluttered room. You have control over the ball, but the slightest error will cause it to not only miss, but to ricochet violently in all directions unpredictably.

What I'm saying is, is that magic should have elements of having control over it, but not so much that it's business as usual. It's varied, it's unique, it's difficult to understand, and only a master can truly get it to do what it wants all the time, and maybe not even then.

Perhaps the elements that magic can be randomized from game to game, or even area to area within the game-world, so as to increase the mystique and difficulty of use that would make it a valuable yet dangerous endeaver?

[Neonivek]

i see no reason why it can't eventually backfire. EVERYTHING IN DWARF FORTRESS IS DANGEROUS. Why should magic be any different

Because you forgot my second term "Viable for a long term build" if magic will eventually and deadly backfire. It makes it useless

If a Fireball as a 1 in a 100 chance of instantly bursting into flames at your fingertips and killing you for no reason, then it isn't viable because you are bound to throw much more then 100 fireballs.

Mind you, I am not saying that magic has to be viable as your only skill (Gandalf was skilled in both the staff and sword) but you should be able to reach the pinnacle point of skill with magic without having Lottery Ticket luck.

[Alrenous]

The thing that keeps coming up for me is that fireballing a goblin at fifty paces is basically just a crossbow but with pretty colours.

Magic that civilizations actually use would most likely not do anything normal, like killing stuff, because there's perfectly good technology for doing that already. It should do things that are otherwise impossible. (Create a magma pipe from whole cloth. That only goes two z-levels down, to the normal bottomless pit, with normal rock in the levels under the pit. No building up from there, though...)

It should not just create wood or food, for instance. Boring. Useful, maybe, and certainly in a story creating a huge pile of logs from nothing would be quite impressive, but in a game it ends up just being another tool. "Ah yes, I don't have enough wood on this map so let me just make the magic workshop and set 'create wood R'" This is not magic. This is the worst of spreadsheet RPG.

Magic does have to be a bit random, or it will just be normal things in different colours. For example, fey moods. They create otherwise unattainably powerful weapons and armour, but cannot be controlled.

Also of note, 'Dwarf magi' seems like a contradiction in terms. Elves are the dudes that have their civilization all magicked up. Dwarves are magical more implicitly...like casually using magma for smelting and forging.

Magic, to be magic, must do things that are otherwise impossible. By definition, it should bend physics, or break it outright, rather than just accelerating or easing perfectly mundane tasks. (Flight-it can get you up there, but so can building stairs.) Necromancy is a perfect example. Headless dwarves...now there's a benefit tied up into a drawback. Miasma? Is 'my hubby is wandering around headless' a thought to even compare to 'forced to watch a friend decay?'

Unfortunately for this line of reasoning, ALL magic ultimately must have a mundane goal. Protecting the fortress. Creating wealth. Exploration. That's about it. For example, necromancy is only better than robotics in the fact that it would probably be cheaper. In fact, there's only one real invention I can think of that acts even a little bit like ideal magic - ironically enough, the computer.

Before the transistor, machines could not, in practise, think. They needed human direction in all tasks. While complicated machines doing complicated things could be made, at the very least a human would have to turn them on, and usually off as well.

This is an ideal target for medieval magic - machines that can think, or at least tell the difference between similar objects. Fire that knows not to harm your dwarves, but is perhaps less finicky about pets. Doors that only let non-nobles pass. Also, divination (sensors) in general; reveal.exe plus balance, or maybe just 'it feels like iron is that way.'

One thing robotics definitely CAN'T do is make a functioning automaton with no physical equivalent to a brain, whereas necromancy does exactly that, in addition to somehow bypassing the muscles and digestive tract/power train as well.

Most immediately, I think magma forges should do something amazing. I mean, magma is pretty awesome, but magma forges are more awesome and I want them to somehow bake magma flavour into some kind of forged object. Toady would be much better at thinking up exactly how that I would, however.

P.S. Mainly I'm writing this cuz I like thinking about the issue.

[Nicpon]

Perhaps off-topic:

What IS the way Toady wants to do magic?

http://www.bay12games.com/media/b12_call_1_transcript.html

Near the end.

[Jamuk]

Technically, I would rather there be specific conditions, but have those conditions be -extremely- precise.  Like having it pick the sphere of the first object within a ten tile radius. That way you can ritualize it but if you just try to do it without preparation it'll blow up in your face, because the wrong sphere is picked.  Of course I'm not suggesting a specific method, but the general idea that specific but very hard to fulfill conditions would exist.  That way magic could be hard to implement but still -have- a use.  And if you wanted to, a dwarf could randomly use magic during a mood and blow up crap using the same code.

Of course, I'd want there to be multiple types of causes and effects and I don't want Toady to tell us any of them, because that defeats the entire point of it being mystical or whatever if you already know exactly how big to make a ritual hall or whatever.  That's where people can write their own spellbooks

[Sergius]

I also disagree with this attitude that "magic has to achieve the impossible, nothing that can be done with other means should be done with magic by definition". That does not mean that there should be a "phantom sword swinging" spell and a "fire crossbow bolt without crossbow" spell, or a "pick a stone and toss it" spell. But seriously, there is NO definition anywhere that says that the only spells possible are those that make up become down or turn dwarves into turnips, and the second someone finds a technology that achieves either of those, magic shouldn't work anymore.

"real" magic (that is, magic done in real world societies) has always been subtle, like "make my soldiers fight better and win the next battle" or "make it so that my son is born with good luck". This is of course because in the real world magic doesn't work at all, and casting "fireball" and having everyone laugh at your silliness wouldn't be very practical.

Now, if you have a "fireball" spell, it is obviously useful only if it's not identical to a dwarf with a crossbow. There are some differences, but discarding "fireball" because "we already have missiley stuff" is a poor reason. Doing it because it's kinda boring and cliched, is a much more understandable reason.

Still, just because the magic we want is novel and imaginative, doesn't mean that it has to be random or stupidly chaotic. Like it was said before, having a 1 in 100 chance of a lethal backfire is dumb, because NO mage could cast more than 99 "spells" in their lives (statistically speaking).

And even if there's a random chance of (nonlethal) failure, that the spell will make something totally ridiculous, it's obvious that some sort of "magic list" needs to exist, even if actual magic is theoretically unlimited in its application. Let's face it, all our dwarves and other races *are* NPCs, excepting one guy in the universe in Adventure Mode. What are the chances of the computer figuring out a new "spell" out of the blue? Short of some sort of learning neural network AI, I don't see it happening. So, there has to be a "make crops grow faster" spell, or at least the idea that a dwarf "wants to make crops grow better or faster", then apply magic to it if possible. That's functionally no different to having a "Toady's Miraculous Garden Fertilizer" spell. It would be funny if one of the critical failures would be for the crops to grow wings and become pests or even low level animals and roam all over your fortress or the outside world... even then, that result has to be somehow preprogrammed.

[JoshuaFH]

I think a problem here is that we're thinking strictly of magic in "spells", that is, that someone has to consciously cast magic in order for it to be magic. I think magic could be part of the environment, naturally occurring through whatever powers that be, and soaking into the ground and influencing the weather and society through it's influence.

Mayhaps even the consciously casted spell magic could be effected by the environmentally occurring magic.

How about that?

[Neonivek]

I think a problem here is that we're thinking strictly of magic in "spells", that is, that someone has to consciously cast magic in order for it to be magic. I think magic could be part of the environment, naturally occurring through whatever powers that be, and soaking into the ground and influencing the weather and society through it's influence.

Mayhaps even the consciously casted spell magic could be effected by the environmentally occurring magic.

How about that?

It isn't so much that we are limiting magic, it is that we are thinking of one aspect of magic mechanically.

For example the Spherical lands without question are magical or Magic-esk, but don't fall under this discussion except for discussions on how they interact with spells.

Though there is something to "Consciously". Imagine if you could even unintentionally cast spells subconsciously or even unconsciously.

[JoshuaFH]

They way Toady talked about it in that one interview makes it seem as though dwarves will be able to imbue things with magic through moods or in their sleep or something. That sounds cool either way.

[Sergius]

I think a problem here is that we're thinking strictly of magic in "spells", that is, that someone has to consciously cast magic in order for it to be magic. I think magic could be part of the environment, naturally occurring through whatever powers that be, and soaking into the ground and influencing the weather and society through it's influence.

Mayhaps even the consciously casted spell magic could be effected by the environmentally occurring magic.

How about that?

It doesn't matter if magic is cast as "spells", if it's in the environment, imbued in objects, if it is created by all living things, if it surrounds us, if it penetrates us, or if it binds the galaxy together. I believe we are discussing the effects of magic, and as such, they have to somehow be programmed, which means whatever effect it has on other objects/people have to be taken from some sort of list. If it's environmental, it's no different from "random things happen". I mean, how are you going to know it's magic at all? If someone is making it happen, it's a "spell", "ritual" or whatever, it is intentional, which means the "caster", priest, wisher, or whoever is responsible for it has some specific effect in mind.

[Evil One]

That's why a costless but unpredictable magic system will always be best. Letting loose the magi should be almost as dangerous as de-activating all your military when the goblins show up. Sure you'll win, but you'll also lose

I think spells should at least cost something, Mana, magic or whatever you want to call it as well as a certain amount of fatigue, The unpredictability should be a value derived from base spell mana cost, level of spell, the casters current fatigue(if you're tired you can't concentrate very well), the casters skill(so very skilled wizards have less chance of blowing themselves up) and enviromental conditions(so unless your wizard is VERY skilled conjuring a water elemental in a desert is just asking for trouble).
Of course more powerful and skilled magic users would be a lot more expensive in Fortress Mode.

Ok, a cost should exist, I was talking physical cost, but having dwarves fatigue, thirst and hunger themselves from spellcasting seems very reasonable. It stops them being commonplace, because you only use them when you need to. Maybe the worst effects should range right up to wounds appearing, or even the dwarf aging for casting spells. I think mana is right out personally. It's a crappy way to do magic when there are so many other options, and it's only useful in pen and paper RPG games because we don't use computers to work out exactly how much magicalness you have left. Having very tough magi would be cool because it would stop them from suffering from thirst/hunger/tiredness/damage while casting.

Secondly, no spells. Hell no. You command the magi to cast, and they'll damn well cast until they're tired/thirsty/hungry/too wounded. The effect would be almost random out of anything that could happen (water magi could increase flow speed, create water, turn ice to water during cold months etc) and that's what spells would essentially be. no "do this thing" commands, just "magic please!" and hope it works for the best. Obviously the dwarves will have to be given a short list of the things that are good and bad for people, so when enemies are near they'll try to cast things that are bad for people near them, and things that are good for people near you, but it's all a bit chaotic.

Unpredictability is the base line, not something to be derived. You have to derive use from the chaos, because that makes magic fun and Fun^tm.

You have to make magic at least reasonably powerful and controllable or people just won't bother with it and that'd be an entire arc wasted, my idea for magic would still allow magic to be directed and effective but would add the danger that miscasting a spell would cause problems based on the type of spell, so(dependent on skill) miscasting a fireball could result in it not exploding where the caster wanted, blowing up in the casters face or simply not exploding at all and/or causing the caster to burst into flames.
I agree with the mana thing though.

This is from the basic magic system thread.

[Nivim]

 Well, as the magic system will be one more of fairy tales than of D&D, energy requirements wont be very obvious, and might be based more on symbolism than conservation of mass an energy. However much I hate that kind of idea in theory, it sounds like it will do well in DF. In such a system the magic's power and effects will be derived from its spheres, and all general symbolism. Symbology will need to be defined for all objects, most relations, and many situations. A flame for instance. It destroys, it transmutes, it purifies, it illuminates, it may comfort, it eats, it grows, and it may be snuffed out an any moment. A great deal of the symbolism for each thing needs to be tied together, such as you can't invoke the purifying power of fire without also invoking some quantity of destruction. These multiple powers within a single force are what can make magic unpredictable and mysterious. You know that fire does certain things (destruction and illumination being the most reliable), this adds the order and predictability you need to use it. But you can't always be sure how it will turn out, which adds for variability and Fun. What would probably be randomized are what objects and symbols are related to what spheres (I think the classical elements should get spheres). So pink socks wont always be related to luring magic. And bridges will not always be related to complete destruction. More likely bridges will use a "connection" sphere, but it would be fun to weight pink socks magical effect to be close to their physical effect...
 So if you wanted to do a summoning spell for some other-dimensional beast you would, in one situation, bring a dagger (for piercing the barriers) and a durable trinket (lets say sapphire necklace, for binding the beast) to a special bridge (representing the connection) over a large river (water is the magic of Change, and can get around rules, like reality's). You would then add possible celestial alignments or a more direct source of magic, and presto! If you did it right you have a powerful monster to do your bidding, if you did it wrong...the possibilities are endless! You could get a creature to weak to survive in this realm, you could get sucked into the portal you made (no item on the list to ground you in your own realm), you could make a big gash in reality and eldrich horrors would spill forth until the gate was closed, ect.
 I am, at time of posting, in that phase of non-sleep where your grammar gets worse and you can ramble on indefinitely. I had to delete quite a few misplaced tangents here.