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Author Topic: The progress of the next DF update...  (Read 3671 times)

Aqizzar

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2009, 02:35:55 pm »

You do realize that .22 and .223 are virtually the same caliber right?  It's a matter of the size of the charge behind the bullet, .223 typically being a very large rifle cartridge.

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I heard it described that heavy armor can have a problem with arrows, namely that lighter armor allows the bolt to pass right through, while heavier armor leaves the bolt in place, moving around and reopening the wound.
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Rowanas

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2009, 02:44:47 pm »

Then buy some silk under your armour. I would rather have silk clothing on than leather armour, personally.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Footkerchief

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2009, 03:01:13 pm »

You do realize that .22 and .223 are virtually the same caliber right?  It's a matter of the size of the charge behind the bullet, .223 typically being a very large rifle cartridge.

They differ in a lot more than charge, but yes, I know the calibers are deceptively similar.  That was why I was wondering if he was mixing them up.
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PencilinHand

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2009, 03:32:29 pm »

Your understanding is completely and totally wrong. (no insult intended), armor worked to both lessen the impact of injuries (turning a potentially crippling injury into a minor inconvenience) and to completely negate strikes entirely. A good suit of platemail renders one almost impervious to sword strikes and highly resistant to arrows and even early firearms. It required either the heft of a polearm or heavy mace\axe to cause serious injury to somone in full plate, or the precision of a dagger to strike at the weak points.

You forgot to mention certain specialty weapons developed specifically for piercing armour.  Or crossbows with especially made bolts or 150lb draw long bows with similarly armour piercing arrows.

You are right, though.  I should have at least said.

Armour, in most cases, wasn't really intended to prevent injury.  Although, armour could stop a glancing blow or seriously negate some types of weapon strikes it was mostly to give the wearer a better chance of preventing death.   Shields and foot work were used to prevent injury more than anything as I understand it.

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You do realize that .22 and .223 are virtually the same caliber right?  It's a matter of the size of the charge behind the bullet, .223 typically being a very large rifle cartridge.
I started writing this before Footkerchief responded so I am going to leave it.  :P


They are essentially the same caliber, yes.  However, they are no where near the same bullet or cartridge casing(shell) and the distinction is important because people tend to use caliber(diameter of gun barrel bore) in place of bullet and shell.  The .223 is ~10% to ~90% more massive than a .22lr depending on the specific manufacturer/model.  Additionally, the .223 is much more streamlined than the .22 and the muzzle velocity is close to 150% above that of a standard .22lr.

For the record, Type I armour should protect against a .22lr.

Type III armour should protect against ball variety but not AP variety 7.62x51 NATO.

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I heard it described that heavy armor can have a problem with arrows, namely that lighter armor allows the bolt to pass right through, while heavier armor leaves the bolt in place, moving around and reopening the wound.

I am not sure what is better, having an arrow completely negate your armour or have it lodge in the wound and the armour.  I suppose in some specific circumstances the arrow passing freely through the armour might be better.  But if heavy armour is the difference between critical damage to a broken rib that doesn't impale the liver vs. one that does I think heavy armour would be superior despite the tendency to open the wound a bit in the interim.
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MMad

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2009, 03:43:15 pm »

A modern combat helmet today is made to stop grenade shrapnel. Any normal .22 rifle round will penetrate it all the way through.

I'm pretty sure I've read that the latest US Army kevlar helmets will stop a 9mm round at close range.
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Rowanas

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2009, 03:55:02 pm »

Big whoop. Point is, if somebody wants to kill you, no amount of head protection is going to stop them. Best to hope that they aim for the body where your armour might mean something.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Vester

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2009, 05:36:55 pm »

The head's a kinda small target. Isn't that why most soldiers are trained to aim for center mass instead?
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LordNagash

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2009, 07:06:10 pm »

Not just soldiers. Pretty much anyone who may have to use a gun as part of their job is trained to aim for center mass.
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Rowanas

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2009, 10:59:26 pm »

Where all the armour is... huh, guess it does work...

Personally, I'm planning for a zombocalypse, so center mass won't cut it.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

jaked122

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2009, 06:04:02 pm »

Where all the armour is... huh, guess it does work...

Personally, I'm planning for a zombocalypse, so center mass won't cut it.
all my FPS games, I always aim for the head, or if I'm bored, the genitals

ein

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2009, 07:46:34 pm »

I was playing laser tag with some friends and one of them kept aiming for the head.
He got a really low score.

Also, literally 90% of hits on me were the laser. I only had a few hits to my body.
Guerrilla warfare for the win.

eerr

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2009, 01:47:51 am »

Fair fights are for suckers
or every race in dwarf fortress.

and megabeasts too
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Apolloin

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2009, 02:55:49 am »

Armour, in most cases, wasn't really intended to prevent injury.  Although, armour could stop a glancing blow or seriously negate some weapon strikes it was mostly to give the wearer a better chance of preventing death.   Shields and foot work were used to prevent injury more than anything as I understand it.

That's still the case today. A modern combat helmet today is made to stop grenade shrapnel. Any normal .22 rifle round will penetrate it all the way through. Ceramic armor isn't even made to fully stop bullets, simply to make sure that the bullet, if it penetrates, will only either leave a nasty bruise or embed in the muscle and not penetrate through.

Modern helmets won't stop a .22 because it's got a high muzzle velocity. They soak up a lot of extreme range shots, and can handily deflect a glancing blow from even a powerful round. Body armour, especially the class III ceramic stuff will neatly stop handgun rounds and shotgun rounds. Heavier calibre rifle rounds will act much as you describe.

It's still like getting slugged in the gut with a baseball bat.
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Footkerchief

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2009, 06:06:34 am »

Modern helmets won't stop a .22 because it's got a high muzzle velocity.

They will actually.
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Neruz

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Re: The progress of the next DF update...
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2009, 07:21:31 am »

The amount of ignorance in this thread about the effectiveness of armor is astounding.
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