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[Arkenstone]

There are lots of ideas on how magic should work, but Toady One is not going to get around to it soon (before the more popular requests) unless there is a unified push for a (relatively) simple system that we all can agree on and that's not going to take 5 years to program.  To accomplish this goal, I propose that as much about magic as is possible be put in the raws.  That way, everyone could create and use the magic system they like best.  Toady doesn't even have to include a system for the unmodded game, we can do that for him!

In this system, spells are just reactions occurring 'in' a character instead of a workshop (but eventually things like self-powered mechanisms and dwarven enchantments can be included).  The syntax for it could look something like this:

magic_standard

[OBJECT:SPELL]

[SPELL:<spell designation>]
      [Name:<spell name>:<announcement_self>:<announcement_other>]
      [SKILL:]
Toady can start with just one Mage skill/profession (possibly using Lt Cyan for profession color) if he wants, but I would start with three for variety: Wizard, Priest and Druid. (eventually including more specialized skills, maybe even making overall magic level an attribute)
      [SPHERE:]
Mainly for Priests/Druids, requires worship oa a deity/force of a particular sphere. (need only match one SPHERE tag, not all)
      [Alignment:<min>:<max>]
Placeholder for eventual expansions, could use a simple personality trait tag.
      [REQ_SACRIFICE:<sentient, animal, specific creature, etc.>]
Another placeholder, good for goblins (in more ways than one...)
      [Reagent:<amount>:<type>:<subtype>:<material>:<matgloss>]
As for reactions; essentially 'magic ammo'
      [CATALYST:<amount>:<type>:<subtype>:<material>:<matgloss>:<in_possession, worn, wielded>]
Item is needed but not consumed, useful for staffs, wands, etc. possibly a second update item.
      [PRODUCT:<chance>:<amount>:<type>:<subtype>:<material>:<matgloss>]
As for reactions
      [EFFECT:ATTACK:<min_dam>:<max_dam>:<damtype>]
For standard attacks, eventually including new damtypes like lightning.
      [EFFECT:ARMOR:<mainblock>:<secondblock>]
An extra(?) layer of armor.
      [EFFECT:SHIELD:<blockchance>:<blockpower>]
Replace shield user with relevant Mage skill.
      [EFFECT:HEAL:<?>]
Don't know enough about the wound system, but this is VERY important for priests.  (eventually you'll have priests from your temple visiting your barracks to heal wounded dwarves.)
      [EFFECT:SUMMON:<creature>]
Creates a friendly creature to fight by your side (or for you).  A miscast (see miscasts, below) while summoning a demon can be very Fun.
      [EFFECT:ENCHANT<_WEAPON _ARMOR _OBJECT _CREATURE>:<effect>]
Adds a new tag/token (ex. [NOPAIN] or [FIREIMMUNE]) to a creature or strengthens the attack/damblock value of a creature, weapon, or armor.  Might eventually give special tags to miscellaneous objects (crystal balls, magical decorations, etc.)
      [SPECIAL:]
Other random stuff.  Here's a list of possible (but not guaranteed) inclusions
      [SPECIAL:FIREBALL]
      [SPECIAL:DRAGONFIRE]
      [SPECIAL:EARTHQUAKE]
      [SPECIAL:TELEPORT]
      [SPECIAL:CHARM]
      [SPECIAL:STOPBLEED]
      [SPECIAL:REGENERATE]
      [SPECIAL:RE_CONSCIOUS]
      [SPECIAL:TURN_UNDEAD]
      [SPECIAL:REANIMATE_CORPSE]
      [SPECIAL:REANIMATE_SKELETON]
      [SPECIAL:SPEAK_WITH_DEAD]
      [SPECIAL:RESURRECT]
      [SPECIAL:REINCARNATE]
      [SPECIAL:SHAPESHIFT]
      [SPECIAL:INVISIBILITY]
These are just possibilities.  If any are to be included, it most likely will be in a later update.
      [RANGED]
      [MELEE]
      [TARGET_FRIENDLY]
      [SELF]
      [PARTY]
Defines target
      [CAST_TIME:]
How long (in steps) to cast.  You can be interrupted.  High levels decrease this (and lows increase). 0 means it happens immediately, but you still move a step.
      [DURATION:<mindur>:<maxdur>]
In frames.  0:0 for permanent/nonvalue.
      [BUILDING:<altar, casting chamber, etc.>]
Requires a building to cast.  Also enables you to order your dwarf priests etc. to cast that spell at that building in fortress mode.
      [MINSKILL:]
Minimum skill level to cast.  Also determines the difficulty to cast, as well as the chance and severity of a miscast.
      [MISCASTS]
The spell can miscast if fails.  All spells can miscast if interrupted (exception: see below).  A miscast can range from switching targets to opposite effects to other Fun stuff.
      [NO_MISCAST]
The spell won't miscast, even if interrupted.

Just who or what can cast a particular spell is determined by an entry in the Entity and/or Creature files.  That way, you can make elves use only nature magic, while goblins use human (and dwarven) sacrifice. (Why do you think they steal so many babies?)

There is so much that can be added, like local magic levels (which also can relate to how realistic/fantastical the local wildlife is), learning spells (requires books/parchment), specialist skill types and more; but all that can be put in a later update.  The point is: you have to start somewhere, we can worry about the final system later.  I will be putting this suggestion on DF Eternal Suggestion Voting http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=24818.0, vote for it if you want some magic!

[Dr. Melon]

I think these are very good raw-format ideas.
You have my vote.

[Capntastic]

I don't like the idea of making a placeholder system just for the sake of having one.   As Toady said in the podcast, there might be some proper magic floating around when the artifact arc takes off, so we'll see what happens then, I think.

[Grimlocke]

Its not a bad setup for a basic magic system, but from the podcasts its pretty obvious that nothing of the sort will ever be implemented by toady himself, as he simply doesnt want the generic fireball shooting magician thing.

I think he just wants to keep it an obscure and rare thing, something only found in rare and/or obscure things such as artifacts, megabeasts, worldgen sites and some other terrain features.

The magic arc will probably stay post version 1, but as capntastic said there might be some magic implemented with the artifact arc, as that arc is pre version 1. When and in what form, is uncertain, but it might be something like artifacts having some special power like doors teleporting something or beds healing wounded dwarves faster.

[Arkenstone]

Very well then, I was just thinking that we could have some basics implemented first.  Besides, I  never intended it to be 'common everyday stuff", magic by definition is unexplainable.  I was just thinking it would be cool to have like one or two people in every site (including your fortress) be able to perform some magic. 

I think then that a better start (even simpler than before) could then just be to have some high priests that heal, wizards that have magic attacks (by giving them ranged attacks in the raws), and the ability to spend a ton of money to enchant a weapon to deal +50 FIRE damage.

[Rowanas]

You are hereby banished from the realms of magic discussion. NO.

[Silverionmox]

I think then that a better start (even simpler than before) could then just be to have some high priests that heal, wizards that have magic attacks (by giving them ranged attacks in the raws), and the ability to spend a ton of money to enchant a weapon to deal +50 FIRE damage.

You might want to revisit some of the other, older magic threads to get why these examples are the very thing DF's magic will be avoiding.

[Arkenstone]

OK then, could you give me a link to a good example?  There hundreds if not thousands of posts on the subject, and I don't now which threads I should be looking at.

[Silverionmox]

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=4140.0

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3192.0

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3757.0

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=4140.0

[Grendus]

As one player pointed out in another thread, the problem with magic is if it's exploitable, why not exploit it? If you can conjure fire infinitely, why bother with magma or coal powered forges when your dwarves can just conjure the heat to work metal. Why bother with swords when you can fry your enemies from half a map away? Why bother with dwarves when you can summon demons to do your  bidding? We discuss drawbacks, but ultimately magic really shouldn't be something the player taps. It should be something the player experiences.

[Silverionmox]

If it's reliable and predictable, it's technology. If you call upon the element of water, you shouldn't know exactly whether you'll get a river or a puddle.

[ArkDelgato]

I still love the idea of having wizards as eccentric-going-on-batshit-insane old men who just do whatever and don't care about the consequences.

Getting a wizard to migrate to your fortress should be a post-king event.

[Silverionmox]

I still love the idea of having wizards as eccentric-going-on-batshit-insane old men who just do whatever and don't care about the consequences.

Getting a wizard to migrate to your fortress should be a post-king event.

Only if the area fits his magic.. or has the potential to be shaped. Otherwise he'd just come to recruit your legendary miners and builders. The wizards will be an independent entity on the map sooner or later anyway, like megabeasts.

[Helmaroc]

I still love the idea of having wizards as eccentric-going-on-batshit-insane old men who just do whatever and don't care about the consequences.

Damnit Merlin, that's the fourth dwarf you've turned green this week!

[Arkenstone]

Thank you, Silverionmox, for those links.

As one player pointed out in another thread, the problem with magic is if it's exploitable, why not exploit it? If you can conjure fire infinitely, why bother with magma or coal powered forges when your dwarves can just conjure the heat to work metal. Why bother with swords when you can fry your enemies from half a map away? Why bother with dwarves when you can summon demons to do your  bidding? We discuss drawbacks, but ultimately magic really shouldn't be something the player taps. It should be something the player experiences.

That was something I had thought of.  Why you couldn't use infinite fireballs instead of magic in fortress mode is because you can't tell your dwarves to.  All fortress mode magic should be either spontaneous, like priests healing dwarves; or be very similar to regular reactions, ex: a few powdered rubies + a gallon of troll blood + the offering of two dozen goblin skulls = a flaming weapon.  In adventure mode, magic is balanced by to factors: one, each spell is much more exhausting than a traditional attack; and two, miscasts (if you keep summoning demons, sooner NOT later one will turn on you).  So, in dwarf mode you don't actually control magic; except for costly rituals and maybe some hired wizards, who know just how much their magic is worth, and are usually more trouble than that.

I still love the idea of having wizards as eccentric-going-on-batshit-insane old men who just do whatever and don't care about the consequences.

Damnit Merlin, that's the fourth dwarf you've turned green this week!

This would fit a wizard's profile quite well.  However, as it would also fit the profile of many players, it would still be nice to see some magic in adventure mode.

And the consequences are always severe...