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Author Topic: controling the free market  (Read 3214 times)

lucusLoC

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controling the free market
« on: August 19, 2009, 07:55:33 pm »

Blurring the lines between management and unit AI: NOW ON ESV!

another post i made got me thinking about unit management handling in fortress mode. currently the player pretty much micro manages all the units, with the exception of nobles, and maybe 1 or 2 other special cases. and this suggestion in no way nullifies the need for a dorf foreman like capability built in to the core DF. we still need to be able to effectively manage our workforce, especially in the early/mid game. what i am proposing is more for late game.

first an example, thought up and hinted at in another post, but fleshed out a bit here.

Uris McEntrepreneur is a crafts dorf in a bustling 150 dorf community. a few shops were built a moth or so ago, and urist now wants to try his hand at shop keeping. so he raids his bank account that he built up carving bone bolts and buys a shop and a few items. at first (like now) he spends little time there, but he does manage to make money on his investment. gradually he spends more and more time tending his shop, and less and less time crafting bone bolts. eventually urist decides he doe not want to craft bone bolts anymore, that he makes enough dorfola tending his shop to make him happy, and he does not give a damn about the hunters that are dieing because they are out of ammo and using their bone crossbows as impromptu hammers, and urist changes class to the merchant noble. as a merchant urist can now buy trade goods from the fortress to stock his store, and sell to visiting trade caravans. he must still rent his room, pay for food, and also a room to manage his shop from, but he is, like all the nobility, free from other fortress responsibility. he is free to use the trade depot to trade for trinkets from caravans, and perhaps even hire part time lackey to tend his store while he attends parties. after a while urist decides he does not want to pay full price for fortress goods anymore. he decides to purchase a workshop, and only buy raw materials from the fortress. in this case urist goes into the totem making business, and starts buying up all the sculls that are cluttering up the butcher shops. he works furiously as his own dorf for the rest of his life, a free and successful dorf. until he makes a bad purchase from a caravan, looses all his money, his shop and his rooms, and is forced to return to the linse churning out bone bolts for his bread and butter.

my question is, do you think this is a feasible idea? in a large fortress would you be willing to accept a small percentage of dorfs going off permanently (or semi permanently, depending on their success) and doing their own thing? of course there will have to be controls on what they can and cannot do, and what they can and cannot take. right now its seems a little ad hock, but that is understandable, since the economy has not really been fleshed out. here are a few ideas as to what can be throw in as far as controls go:

1. dorfs don't get to go into the free market unless they own a shop. this will give you at least rudimentary controls as to how many and who gets to participate. this should probably also include the ability for the player to "buy back" a store if a critical dorf tries his hand at shopkeeping.

2. dorfs don't get to grab goods willy-nilly. fortress goods must be marked "free to trade" or something to tell dorfs that those goods, while still able to be used by the fortress proper, are available for purchase buy private enterprise. this includes both raw mats and finished goods.

3. dorfs need the ability to rent rooms, like they already do for bedrooms, to handle anything they need to do. workshops can either be rented by the month, by the job, or not at all, depending on how the player sets them, same goes for offices and other rooms.

4. the player needs the ability to buy back owned items. this way if a merchant buys that one item from the caravan that you need you can still get it. it will also help with the owned-sock-blocking-the-gate problem. buy it back and dump it.

5. dorfs should probably not have unlimited funds anymore. nobility should be paid from the rent collected and items sold. player actions should probably still be paid out of an infinite "fortress reserve" though.

6. free market dorfs need the ability to ask for things, such as storage space (or maybe just keep it all at the shop, raw mats and all) workshops to buy or rent, nicer rooms if none are available, materials to purchase etc. basically a way to communicate what they want from the player. maybe like a mandate system, but with the only negative a bad thought.

7. dorfs should also be able to negotiate with the liaison for goods they want, such as mats that you either do not have or do not make available. this may or may not be shown to the player, but it would be cool if you could go someplace and look. "urist requested shells from the human liaison cause the fortress master is a bastard and is hording them all for moody dorfs"

8. dorfs should be able to temporarily hire other dorfs to do work for them, such as commissioning goods to be made for their store, from raw mats they already own. they would pay the other dorf to do this, possibly with a tax that goes to the nobility. dorfs available for hire could be marked with the dorf manager, so that really important dorfs time is not taken up making glass trinkets for the free market, and instead continue to pump out glass blocks for the tower of doom.

of course all this needs to tie in with a revamped economy, but that is another discussion entirely.

what do you all think?

edit: title
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 01:07:19 pm by lucusLoC »
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Vattic

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2009, 08:36:29 pm »

I wont comment on how feasible it might be but I certainly like the idea. I want a dwarf that runs a tavern for travellers and dwarves alike. I think it would be cool so long as it doesn't put too much strain on you as a player and it produces interesting opportunity for plot, then again I tend to like the idea of the dwarves being more autonomous.
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King_of_the_weasels

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2009, 08:58:58 pm »

What ever gets dwarves to just produce stuff instead of me always having to tell them too is fine by me.
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Impaler[WrG]

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 03:25:23 am »

Very well thought out I say, while these would be some very 'high functioning' AI involved here nothing sounds unfeasible in the long run.

I've always though the transition into the 'economy' portion of the game should be more nuanced and split up into segments which the player can selectively use.  For example a "Foreman" Noble could turn on/off dynamically generated wage labor of the type you described.  The Trader would have an option that lets dwarves buy directly from the Caravans, The Tax collector would allow us to set a Tax rate and a Rent rate etc etc.  The player gets to decide how things will work on a spectrum of full command economy to a full free market system.  The ultimate tool might even be the "Master Architect" who would allow dwarves to mine and create their own rooms and tunnels at which point we have almost all the tools for a fort to run itself.

BTW on a related note I think the economic system has a big gap in how it represents ownership, everything is either whole fort communal or individual private property.  Family & Clan level ownership especially of rooms would really feel more historically accurate and add depth to the economy.
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Winterbrass

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2009, 06:31:13 am »

6 and 7 would make me permit only dwarves that I hated to own shops; I'd make the shops out of nickel bars and fill the damn place full of lava the moment I could lock them in there.

I hate mandates, and I begrudge every square that I am forced to give to any dwarf because I dislike having forts that are bigger than my screen. If Urist McRandomdwarf could make mandates, I'd burn his ass alive just as fast the Hammerer gets dead. The position of Mayor is the most deadly position in my fortress if the dwarf ever mandates anything that isn't common rock.
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Quift

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2009, 07:51:21 am »

I raised some points on how this might work in this this thread before it derailed to people discussing capitalism vs socialism with very little regard to actual game-mechanics. feel free to comment.


http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=19478.0
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Hyndis

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2009, 10:36:01 am »

I do like the idea where shops are actual shops.

There should be taverns and stores where merchants spend time working in, and other dwarves stop by to booze up or purchase items. Individual dwarves should be linked to their particular shop too, to prevent it from becoming just another generic workshop.

However at the same time, there should be some control over this. I don't want my legendary armorcrafter running off to become a non-productive merchant.

Perhaps make these guys be appointed nobles, similar to the broker/book keeper/trader?
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Pilsu

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2009, 01:32:52 pm »

However at the same time, there should be some control over this. I don't want my legendary armorcrafter running off to become a non-productive merchant.

Perhaps make these guys be appointed nobles, similar to the broker/book keeper/trader?

Yeah. Even with the economy enabled, goods and materials are still communal. Shop keepers should be appointed by the state

Shops should be togglable between public, export and local (needs better names) and the type of shop selected when constructing. Allows you to sell stuff to adventurers

Getting derailed here though, economy was recently talked about in some thread created for just that purpose so should probably stick to it
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Bricks

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2009, 01:58:43 pm »

Regarding management and unit AI:  once established, it would provide a framework for allowing forts to continue to run after the player leaves.  On the macro scale, the game could look at the assigned positions, the imports/exports, the local resources, etc; and if an adventurer visited, the managing units could continue to delegate to the dwarves, who would in turn be more autonomous as to their wants and needs.  The army arc and burrows can make defense more automated.  "Winning" fort mode could be generally defined as progressing to a stage where you can leave the scene and the fort doesn't totally collapse, whether you want to establish a base camp, a farming community, a trading post, a quarry, a tree harvesting facility, a barony, or a mountainhome.  The only problem I see (apart from the horrible complexity of programming the wants and needs of individual dwarves so the economy doesn't tend to collapse) is properly teaching the dwarves to use ridiculous traps the require levers.
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lucusLoC

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2009, 02:23:17 pm »

@ Impaler and bricks

You should check out my management ai thread. it needs some help fleshing out.

edit: linky to the management ai thread: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=39828.0

and the economic system does need a big revamp, and it is coming. i too would like to see some form of family ownership of things like rooms and shops. i think  this could be tied into the burrows arc as well, as you could set a burrows to be owned, and the rooms within could be rented out or given to family members, with the income going into either a family trust or the account of the head of the family for disbursement. a burrow could also be used to make an inn, with a shop room (i think shops should be rooms and not workshops) in the same burrow as a few rooms, and that burrow designated as an inn. any designated rooms that were contained in that burrow would be part of the inn. care would have to be taken that these owned burrows did not overlap, or else you could get land disputes, grudges and other nastiness. or even tempered dorfs could solve the problem on their own, with some money changing hands and the disputed property being divided up. players could see this in the room designation. "room owned by :urits mclandlord, disputed by urist mcangry" dorfs would also dislike (i would imagine) the exercise of eminent domain, and would protest their rooms being excavated for that new wagon highway. this could be mitigated with a buyback system for rooms as well. the only penalties to not buying back would be bad thoughts and possibly tantrums.

@winterbrass

that is the thing, it is not a real mandate. i just though that was a decent way to communicate a need. the only negative would be a bad thought in the dorf wanting that item/mat/space.


@pilsu

yeah, this was not intended to be an econ discussion, more of a "how dorfs own things, and what players need to manage that" kind of tread. we should try and keep it to that.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 02:29:55 pm by lucusLoC »
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lucusLoC

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2009, 02:42:25 pm »

i was just thinking about that eminent domain issue. we would need a view that shows rooms, and highlights the active piece of furniture. we would need an option under "q" to see who owns the room, if it is part of a larger complex (owned burrow) and current absolute value of the room. we need the option to <t>ake the room, < b >uy the room, <r>esize the room (with payment for any difference) or <R>esize the room (without payment). dorfs should understand and not get upset if they are payed, and they should get very upset if they are not paid, with lager hits to mood for more money lost.

for more discussion on how room designation should work, go here: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=40298.0

lol to bold. fixed.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 02:53:07 pm by lucusLoC »
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lucusLoC

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2009, 03:03:01 pm »


@ impaler again

i dislike the idea of letting dorfs dig there own holes in my fort, but if coupledd witha "this unmined space avaiable for sale" designation i could see potential.

this also dovetails nicely wit my template thread, please do check out and comment: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=39304.0

sorry for the multipost, separate ideas following separate trains of thought :-)
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lucusLoC

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2009, 06:29:10 pm »

quad post! new idea:

i have been thinking a bit more about how a shop should work. a shop should not be a room, it should be a burrow. this burrow would be designated for "commerce." of course most of these burrows would be room sized, and buildings or room in that burrow would become part of the "shop." so a burrow with a masonry shop (or room, when workshops are implemented as rooms) would be a masons shop. the mason/store owner would buy rocks from the fortress and turn them into finished goods, probably mostly furniture. if the burrow contained a farm a farmer would be able to grow food to sell. if the burrow had a booze/prepared food stockpile, along with a number of defined bedrooms, it would be an inn. (i do not know if there would be a way to prevent the "innkeeper" from renting out the rooms to local dorfs, nor do i know if it would be considered a "problem." please discuss).

a player would be free to make a shop something as simple as a furniture stockpile for a furniture store, to something the equivalent of a factory, containing all the needed equipment for a specific production chain. you could make a brewery by assigning a farm plot (set to only grow brewable plants), a plant and seed stockpile, a brewery and a booze stockpile. in this case i can see a need to sell surplus seed, perhaps to the fortress itself, perhaps to trade carivans, perhaps to both, but either way this should probably happen automatically. for larger shops employees will need to be hired, as discussed before, but maybe a player could also allow them to be hired permanently. in that case a fairly high level management ai will have to be assigned to the owner dorf, to allow him to effectively control and manage his little empire (he would need to queue jobs for his employees for example). dorfs could be appointed to shops, or allowed to buy them (or be hired by the owner), depending on the players desire.

again, this is not a discussion about the actual economy, but rather how a player controls and interacts with that economy.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 06:32:57 pm by lucusLoC »
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Quift

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2009, 03:57:53 am »

But when thinking about player-economy interaction you still have to take into consequence what the economy actually does, and how it works.

Do you want the player to control everyting in the fort? placing the dwarves in their own rooms, placing their furniture and them owning nothing, wanting nothing for themselves?

or would you prefer the dwarves desiring stuff for themselves, paying for the greatest room they kan afford, moving when they get kids or an increase in their salary, and buying clothes and crafts from your own craftsmen (finally making crafts actually do something), and finally do you want the economy to adapt to the player, lowering wages when unemployment is high, increasing rent when rooms are scarce and dumping prices on rock mugs when production is howering at an industrial scale while all 20 dwarves each have 2 nice mugs already?

If the former you do not want a change at all, and for the latter there are a lot to do. But I do agree that focus should be on playability and gameplay and not a pointless socialism vs capitalism debate.

BTW, did you read my posts in the read I linked? it starts out quite economic theory, but it does allow some challenging mechanics which should be quiet intuitive for the player.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Blurring the lines between management and unit AI
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2009, 05:17:58 am »

I would love to see most of this in the game, the only thing I disagree with is that the fortress “account should be infinite." I think that although it would be hard to get right, there should be an amount that the fortress has. It would probably be very high, and easy to make more of, because the fort should own all recourses on the map that are not claimed, but still what is the point of being able to pay dwarfs out a meaningless infinite number to get stuff back? Also I would like to see after many years a rich family having more leverage than even me, I think that that would add a whole new level of game play.

About "this unmined space available for sale" I think that that is a great idea, perhaps even needing the game to check and see what minerals may be in the unseen space to up the price, or they can choose not to buy or sell the mineral rights (maybe even cause a bad thought if something really good pops up.)
In fact I think that is a great general idea for all digging, hire the mining guild to either dig out a spot or sell the mineral and/or space rights to them, or even individual dwarfs that can go and hire the mining guild! Everybody wins, the state gets resources or money, and the guild gets resources or money, and more space all-around.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 06:08:16 am by Criptfeind »
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