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[Derakon]

If you're going to add tech to the game, then it should be achievable. Otherwise you're just adding things that practically nobody would ever see, which is effectively a waste of time. If it takes just as much effort to add content that 95% of players will appreciate as it does to add content that only 5% of players will appreciate, you're best-served doing the former.

[Jreengus]

Ultimately I reckon dwarf fortress should have all technology up to modern day stuff, each race has a certain set of years when they discover each peice opf technology (although they can also steal it from enemies/buy from allies if someone else has it) and then you set how long you want world gen to last thus defining your level of technology.

But to me this is waaaaay in the future when toady has finnaly finished all the stuff for this era.

[Doniazade]

quote:Originally posted by Kagus:
<STRONG>Okay.  That includes the tripod-mounted 1895 .303 caliber Maxim machine gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Maxim_machine_gun_Megapixie.jpg</STRONG>

We already have those(legendary marksdwarves)

[Granite26]

The problem I see with tech levels is the recursive nature of the development.  Gunpowder was easy, refining your metalurgy to the point of controlling the explosions, foundries to the level of smooth bores, and chemistry to making the gunpowder of reliable quality, that was what took the work.  Hundreds of years of trial and error eventually producing one new trick that enabled humanity to look for the next incremental improvement.  Along the way, a lot of wasted lives, blown up buildings, etc.

Games with tech trees have spoilt us into thinking that the newest technological developement is just dollars and time away.  (Think about a modern tech tree where every level you buy of engineering says 'allows flying cars' and you'll have a glimpse of where I'm coming from.)

In order to get the gunpowder up, sure you could do that in an alchemy lab, but it would be of random and unknown quality, and generally low.  Anything you built with it would have a 200% error in the fuse length and blast radius.  But, after working for 10 years in the lab on research mode, you'd get the ability to build (gasp) the level 2 alchemy lab.  Ad nauseum forward 300 years and you've got your level 5 chem lab which lets you build gunpowder of known quality.

The problem with tech levels, from a gameplay perspective, is either you are psychically planning to get them, and playing towards getting them (as opposed to playing the game as it is set), or you take so long to get to them that the advance gets lost in the shuffle.  (Imagine 300 years of game time...)  Oh yeah, and having to store the quality of the metal (Masterwork Steel Bars?!?)  There's already a reasonable amount of this present (setting up your 'industries' before you've discovered the ores and whatnot)

I've long wanted to play the '30 people get dropped off on the planet and have to tech their way up to a full civilization' game, but this isn't really the venue for it.

[GRead]

From a gameplay perspective the real problem with tech levels is they water down the game.

The more tech levels that are included the more each individual tech level suffers for it. Contrast the total war games with a game like rise of nations. they are both fine games for their genres, but which has a better medieval era? now contrast rise of nations with any of the close combat games. which has a better industrial era?
I think I would rather see DF have almost nothing in the way of tech advancement and be *very* detailed in its area than to be very generic in allot of areas.

I do, however, support having as much available in the raws as possible. If someone wants to mod in modern amenities than by all means I think they should be able to. But the last thing I want to see DF be is another civ-style game where the optimum route is to put as many researchers in the 'lab' as possible so you can blow away the goblin knights with your dwarven machineguns by 1500.

[vanarbulax]

I seem to be the only one who thinks this is a really bad idea. Seriously I want DF to create a living breathing world from a particular time period and mythos and not something where suddenly new world shattering come out every hour or so. Never mind the massive amount of time it would take to program all conceivable technologies from medieval up to current and if you were you would be ignoring the massive amount of detail still to be added to what are already in the plans, it also would completely remove believability from the world unless it had you spend hundreds of game years in which case so few people would use it why bother implementing it. That being said I would like a couple more uses for power, I see dwarven technology more as a Rube Goldberg series of simple components instead of highly specific machines. I do also want to see steam power since that also is fairly easy to make and harness.

[Kagus]

The only high-technology things that I could consider being in native DF (not modded DF, two very different things) would be gunpowder and electricity.

I'm not talking lightning bolts (tee hee) and tesla cannons, I'm talking long streams of copper or gold from the generator (powered by standard power sources) to the connection points.  The connection points that happen to be in a 3/7 pool of water in your main hallway, the one those goblins are walking down.

Other than that and linking it to a chair for kicks, I can't fathom any real use for electricity other than aesthetics.

As for the upgrading/tech tree idea, I would have to say no.  Too much game, not enough atmosphere.

[Dasleah]

quote:I seem to be the only one who thinks this is a really bad idea. Seriously I want DF to create a living breathing world from a particular time period and mythos and not something where suddenly new world shattering come out every hour or so. Never mind the massive amount of time it would take to program all conceivable technologies from medieval up to current and if you were you would be ignoring the massive amount of detail still to be added to what are already in the plans, it also would completely remove believability from the world unless it had you spend hundreds of game years in which case so few people would use it why bother implementing it. That being said I would like a couple more uses for power, I see dwarven technology more as a Rube Goldberg series of simple components instead of highly specific machines. I do also want to see steam power since that also is fairly easy to make and harness.

So roleplay some Cavedwarves. Just because the content is in the game, doesn't mean you have to use it. The only goals in DF are the ones you make for yourself, and no-one's going to force you into doing anything.

But I'd still rather have the option, regardless of whether it's ever used.

[ May 15, 2008: Message edited by: Dasleah ]

[GRead]

quote:Originally posted by Dasleah:
<STRONG>

So roleplay some Cavedwarves. Just because the content is in the game, doesn't mean you have to use it. The only goals in DF are the ones you make for yourself, and no-one's going to force you into doing anything.
[ May 15, 2008: Message edited by: Dasleah ]</STRONG>

It's only natural... *very* natural, to come out strongly against an idea that both A: you would never use and B: it would take enormous amounts of effort to put in the game. Seriously, 'if you don't want it don't use it' is a very common  strawman and, honestly, I'm kind of tired of hearing it. Your counter-argument also assumes that the rest of the world will halt for him, something the suggestion doesn't account for. He'll have cavedwarves while the goblins are launching Mortars down the cave entrance. As for me, I'm not complaining that I'd have to use tech trees if they got put in, I am complaining that if tech trees get put in the amount of work that gets put into the rest of the game will not only increase greatly but the returns will be significantly less. Again, see my analogies above about games that have tech trees and games that don't. It would take years just to make one or two more tech levels that are as detailed and interesting as the current one, and the current one is barely even done yet. and now you're suggesting that we put in how many. 5? 10? 'no cap' is kind of amorphous, but there will have to be one somewhere.

Are we going all the way to dwarves with rail guns and nuclear warheads, managing centrifuges in deep subterranean laboratories? or are we stopping at massive dwarven battleships and tanks? how will air power be handled? will air power even be relevant before late industrial? how about tanks? be kind of silly if tanks had hit points or could be pierced by crossbow bolts, and you know DF is never going to tolerate the early civilization games' phenomenon of the lucky spearmen who took out the tank platoon. Will everyone advance at the same rate, or will each civilization have its own tech level? how will you model this? what happens if, by some freak incident, the goblins have howitzers, automatic rifles, and jet fighters when you start but the dwarves are still stuck in the bronze age?

I could go on like this forever, but my point is that the implementation of technology advances is the kind of thing you need to specifically build the game around, not something you can add in later 'cause it would be cool. I'm sure it would be! but just stop and fathom the effort of putting in all that tech. now consider how much work still needs to happen on DF without any of that tech planned. I'll have to go with a much more emphatic 'no' than before.

Also, re-reading the initial suggestion, I would like to add that making said tech levels achievable only by players who spend insane amounts of time achieving them makes everything I've said above even more important. All the effort of making it and only a handful of people who are prepared to play 1,000 years of painfully researched forts will even see? no thanks.

[Sukasa]

quote:Originally posted by Kagus:
<STRONG>The only high-technology things that I could consider being in native DF (not modded DF, two very different things) would be gunpowder and electricity.

I'm not talking lightning bolts (tee hee) and tesla cannons, I'm talking long streams of copper or gold from the generator (powered by standard power sources) to the connection points.  The connection points that happen to be in a 3/7 pool of water in your main hallway, the one those goblins are walking down.

Other than that and linking it to a chair for kicks, I can't fathom any real use for electricity other than aesthetics.

As for the upgrading/tech tree idea, I would have to say no.  Too much game, not enough atmosphere.</STRONG>

Yeah, I think electricity would be useable for simple things, such as water traps, motors, and lighting.  Be really cool though, if you could make an electric switch that's machine-operated.  Nothing says "Dwarven" like an electric machine-logic defense computer  

[Dasleah]

Look, for all the points against it (and they're all valid ones - remember this is a Suggestions forum, not a I Demand You To Do Exactly What I Say forum) the main thing I keep coming back to is I just don't want to see DF become the kind of game where good, creative ideas are curtailed because it's not deemed to be in the right 'atmosphere' by Toady. DF should be a game where the most creative players are able to do what they want and shouldn't be punished for it.

And note, at no points have I suggested using RTS-like 'technology caps' or levels. I simply used the term 'level' to indicate the natural progression from one technological 'age' into another, there'd be no unlocking to do in order to get there.

quote:Seriously, 'if you don't want it don't use it' is a very common strawman and, honestly, I'm kind of tired of hearing it.

Fair enough. I was a pretty weak counter, but I believe I've addressed it in the next section.

quote:Your counter-argument also assumes that the rest of the world will halt for him, something the suggestion doesn't account for.

Fair enough. I could of sworn that I mentioned that the 'advanced' levels of technology would only be available to Dwarves, as they are the Technology race in DF (Goblins being Spiritual, Elves being Natural, and Humans being... inbred?) So unless he made enemies with a nearby friendly Dwarven Mountainhome, the opposing race's tech would still be at their current level. This would also make it more important to defend against them stealing your artefacts - you don't want that kind of technology falling into the wrong hands.

quote:Are we going all the way to dwarves with rail guns and nuclear warheads, managing centrifuges in deep subterranean laboratories? or are we stopping at massive dwarven battleships and tanks? how will air power be handled? will air power even be relevant before late industrial? how about tanks?

Note that I suggested the technological cut-off being circa 1900. So no, no nukes, air force, or tanks. I selected this date simply because it's before World War One, and thus that voids most of the military tech that we see in our modern world. I don't mind seeing Cobalt-enriched Powder Kegs - but Tanks are taking it a bit far.

[Devath]

Meh. I think... that would be kinda cool... but... there's something that doesn't seem quite right. It sounds like you are talking about the implementation of an in-game physics engine that revolves around components in the raws. Therefore, creativity would be needed. (Eg: my failed attempt to make pressure cannons with water, rocks, floodgates, and holes in the fortress walls. (They didn't work.)) Creativity in DF is generally defined as engineering, but that is what he seems to be espousing, which is fine with me. It may not, however, be what he actually espousing. Who knows.

Peace, Devath.

[GRead]

quote:Originally posted by Dasleah:
<STRONG>We've had a lot of suggestions regarding what level of technology DF should cap at, whether or not it's 'realistic' to give Dwarves such things as gunpowder and the like. So here's my suggestion.

We include them all.
</STRONG>

so, I read this part, and thought about several suggestions I've seen for dwarftanks dwarfnukes and other insane dwarf war machines.

quote:Originally posted by Dasleah:
<STRONG>I'd say... anything invented before 1900 is fair game?</STRONG>

but it looks like I totally missed the follow-up

 

quote:Originally posted by Dasleah:
<STRONG>Note that I suggested the technological cut-off being circa 1900. So no, no nukes, air force, or tanks. I selected this date simply because it's before World War One, and thus that voids most of the military tech that we see in our modern world. I don't mind seeing Cobalt-enriched Powder Kegs - but Tanks are taking it a bit far.</STRONG>

and thus I fail at reading comprehension.

I did not mean to get quite so aggressive. As you say, this is the suggestions forum and is a place for suggestions. I just see that 'don't want it don't use it' argument all over the place and it kind of got to me. I do still disagree for the reasons stated before, expanding the tech out too much would not be a worthwhile endeavour. It would have to be complex, and it would not be a good move to make something so complex something that so few people could\would attain.

[ May 15, 2008: Message edited by: GRead ]

[Dasleah]

Yes, that 'we include them all' statement was a bit ambiguous. I should of stated from the get-go that I never intended to suggest Dwarves using cat scans and briefcase fusion reactors.

And it is a bit of a strawman, agreed, but I don't like how many players assume that just because of an addition to a game, they're going to be forced into using it, and complain endlessly about about it. I'm more for including the option - it's there, no other Civ uses it, and if you don't want to touch it, then that's fine, as all it does is add complexity and variation for the players who want it and you can still play the game as it is now and never have to worry about electricity or gunpowder.

Perhaps if the difficulty of achieving it wasn't so high? I mean, your Dwarves start off with knowledge of basic power-generation through waterworks and windmills. So they start being able to build it all, and thus the only limitation is materials? That seems more reasonable. I wasn't advocating a system where you have a Library workshop and you require X amounts of Y material and a Dwarf with the Research labour switched on for 50 years in order to 'unlock' the option of building the technology. I was thinking more along the lines of the core materials to initiate that 'line' of technology were rare - so, if you wanted to use electricity, the cornerstone of that would be a battery made from some rather uncommon materials, but everything else would just be made from common DF materials (well, those with the [CONDUCTIVE] tag, anyway)

[Lyrax]

quote:Originally posted by Dasleah:
<STRONG>I don't like how many players assume that just because of an addition to a game, they're going to be forced into using it, and complain endlessly about about it.</STRONG>

If something I don't like gets added, it will by force use up coding/development resources that I would much prefer be used on something else.  This is why some of them complain.