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[Demosthenes]

Training dummys, to help our dwarven military gain skill without crushing each other's skulls. Possibly not as good as sparring, either stops giving points after a certain level, or just trains slower. Maybe set a preference, either sparring or using the dummies, on the Squad screen, or the individual dwarf.
Maybe mechanized dummies to train armor/shield skill.
Good for (really) small armies, or new recruits,or skilled dwarves (so they won't bash a dwarf's skull in), etc.

[ November 16, 2007: Message edited by: Demosthenes ]

[Tormy]

Yes I also always wanted to see something like this. Sparring is a pain in the ass as it is now, dwarves sometime cause SERIOUS wounds to eachother. We definitely need something like training dummies, so that the dwarves can practice with weapons without the risk of loosing an eye and stuff like that.

[BurnedToast]

I dunno, I think there needs to be some risk in sparring. Champions are really, really, really good once they get legendary weapon skill and shield use - a single champion with good armor and weapons can kill a dragon or a colossus or a near unlimited amount of non ranged goblins with no wounds. add legendary wrestler in for dodges and they can probably take a large amount of ranged goblins too.

The small chance of them getting maimed while training seems a fair price to pay.

[Abyssal Squid]

If the problem is that champions are too easy to get, making getting them cost the lives of a few recruits doesn't change that since you have an unlimited supply of them, given a couple of years.  What it does do is make starting a military in the first couple of years of a fort really risky business.

I'd rather have getting champions be nearly impossible from sparring than have nearly half of my recruits getting career-ending injuries after a couple sparring sessions.  Weapon quality seems to increase skill for the purposes of damage and to-hit but not for making sparring checks, which makes getting recruits going when you have a decent weaponsmith is a bit tricky.

I like the idea of dummies to get a dwarf up to novice level, since it can train him to temper his blows enough that it doesn't fly into a wall and blow apart.  After that, you'd have to spar or fight with a live opponent, although you could tell a squad to spar with sparring weapons rather than real weapons, with the downside being that they'd have to re-equip if they ever go on duty.

[guspav]

How about training weapons instead? like made of wood or something, just like it works with bolts.

[Nil Eyeglazed]

I just like to see my champions "accidentally" kill the only other sworddwarf.  You know, the sworddwarf who picked up the carefully jewelled, multiply spiked, studded sword that I made specifically to my champion's tastes.  Oops!

[hactar1]

Nothing's stopping you from equipping your dwarves with training weapons and the best armor you have.  Just lock them in a room with copper weapons (or wood ones you bought from the elves) before you set their equipment settings, and they'll use those.  When they actually need to do some damage, set them to unarmed, then lock them in a room with your steel weapons, and reset their weapon prefs.  It's a pain, but it'll save a few lives.

[Stromko]

Just don't give them weapons until they're very good at wrestling and armor use, and be very wary of letting high-quality weapons be picked up for training. I've seen dwarves get /brutalized/ by masterwork battle axes being wielded by green recruits, and I was only recruiting Tough dwarves and giving them chain and plate immediately.

It's been said that as your dwarves become skilled in a weapon they become dramatically less likely to injure their sparring partners. If this is true, the problem will reduce the more skilled your dwarves get. On the other hand, high strength means more danger, which is certainly possible and is why you should avoid having legendaries spar with 'regular' dwarves.

Low-quality silver weapons should be perfect training gear, just lower the 'max skill' at the forge where you order them made, and make sure some unskilled folks have Weaponsmithing as a job.

If you have a highly-skilled weaponsmith and don't want to risk them dying before you've made plenty of quality weapons, you could designate a stockpile that only accepts high quality weapons and lock them behind a door once everything's stored away. I think that's a lot easier than locking your dwarves in with what you want them to use, it's a pain in the arse to get them all on-duty and not-sleeping/eating/drinking when you need them.

[mineditall]

yes i can see the pro and cons of those
but PELLS are more realistic for a person to spar with than a target dummy
target dummy is more for stabbing and repeating, not very good
a pell with attack back as your dwarf attacks it
thus increasing its shield and armor skills along with its weapon skill

[Retales]

Maybe: training dummy + mechanism + power = a moving sparring opponent. Think Dungeon Keeper training room

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Retales:
<STRONG>Maybe: training dummy + mechanism + power = a moving sparring opponent. Think Dungeon Keeper training room </STRONG>

Exactly, we have mechanisms, so we should be able to create some very basic "fighting" dummies. I guess youve all seen those in some medieval - fantasy movies. Those can hit with a sword in a few directions randomly and stuff like that. It should be perfectly enough for training imo.

[Stromko]

A non-living mechanism can't be good enough to get your dwarves totally trained up, it'd just be way too predictable, but a training dummy that brings dwarves from nothing to dabbling or normal skill would be quite nice.

They should actually prefer to fight dummies until they know how to handle their weapons. That way, they'd be less likely to cause accidents when training with live opponents.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Stromko:
<STRONG>A non-living mechanism can't be good enough to get your dwarves totally trained up, it'd just be way too predictable, but a training dummy that brings dwarves from nothing to dabbling or normal skill would be quite nice.

They should actually prefer to fight dummies until they know how to handle their weapons. That way, they'd be less likely to cause accidents when training with live opponents.</STRONG>

Yes, this sounds good.

[Anticheese]

Agreed on the dabbling to normal bit.

What about being able to designate a jogging area to get your dwarves used to moving around in armour?

[Cosmonot]

I can see a fix looking something like this:

1. When sparring, whatever bonuses to damage are caused by skill are reversed, so experienced dwarves are actually less likely to maim their partners due to greater control.

2. Before sparring, dwarves get a special pickup equipment job where they try to find the worst weapon available and use that instead, so the guy with a masterpiece weapon doesn't try to spar with it.

3. Allow the player to create wooden weapons. You could just use silver, but wood is a bit more realistic for training, and less valuable too.

4. Reduce or eliminate the critboost on weapons like spears and swords when sparring, as long as your dwarf has a little skill. Alternatively, make it so that materials like wood have reduced or eliminated critboost when used to make weapons.

Combined, these fixes would make it so that dwarves still get injured during sparring, but are much less likely to do so unless they're completely incompetent or don't have less-lethal weapons available.