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[Dr. Melon]

I've seen a lot of suggestions for more complex machines, more complex this, that and the other: but new players might be put off by the ever-steepening complexity curve.

So I thought: on starting a new fortress, allow the player to choose a complexity level (not difficulty level; dwarves will still be torn to bits quite easily by spiders), so that the player can play without worrying about the more fiddly bits of the game.

For example, you'd get these:

Simple - No moods, no economy, simple machines, generic material types (like  "rock, wood, plants, seeds, beer, gold, silver, iron ore, diamonds" instead of all the different types), no sieges, simple constructions, simple traps
Less Complicated - No economy, simple machines, no sieges, simple traps
More complicated - No economy, simple machines
Full - Name says it all

Of course, the examples given are very few and probably not the best choices for explaining the idea; but I'm sure you get my drift.

I for one would play on Full all the time, it's just that newer players might want to be introduced to a simpler version of the game before learning about all the really complex stuff.

[Winterbrass]

It's pretty complex as it is - just let new people figure it out using the wiki. I started playing maybe two weeks ago, and I found it to be of immense help due to the diagrams. I've already started messing around with my raws and have made a custom race that's more physiologically correct than the current dwarves.

DF is very much a game that grows at the pace of the player, with the simple caveat that your fortress will eventually go tits up. You learn and adapt, or you don't - that's what determines the success of your fort. Knowledge is power. I could spout off more cliche sayings, but really, I like the steep learning curve - along with the ASCII art, the game is very retro in that there are few to no safety nets.

Reminds me of early days in MMOs when death meant you not only lost your gear but you also permanently lost vital statistics, and when adventure games required that you actually remember things or write them down, because the game couldn't be arsed to do it for you.

For me, attempting to make DF more user-friendly would decrease its appeal, simply because I lose a lot of respect for games that provide an 'easy mode'. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

[Rowanas]

Hear, hear!

[Grendus]

I'm inclined to agree, actually. While the game needs an official walkthrough (the ones on the forum are great, but many players don't lurk the forums of the games they play so it's imperfect), I don't think it needs difficulty settings beyond modding the raws or changing the init files.

[Bricks]

I wouldn't care either way, but it does mean Toady has to rework the game at each level, or leave the simpler modes 'lacking.'  What would be infinitely better would be some sort of tutorial system, which I must grudgingly admit isn't a sensible priority for upcoming releases.

In addition, a sort of 'progressive difficulty' would be cool, kinda like how the game currently bases the types and magnitudes of attacks on accumulated wealth.  (Though perhaps without the number of ways to screw yourself over, like how mining out a huge area, while for the player is near-valueless, suddenly tingles every goblins' bat senses.)  There is also something to be said about 'learning through failure,' a concept I don't ever want to see written out (but I still think should be an option to disable, as to not put off the more easily frustrated).

Adventure mode is a little more difficult to adapt; however, it seems to need a ton of reworking anyway.

Similarly, since most everything should be controlled through the raws, eliminating different ores, or turning off moods, should be very simple.

[lucusLoC]

When things get more rawded out, the community could do an easy mode mod. White, grey and black stone, simple jems and ores, simplified reactions and mats. We can probably get pretty close to it right now. Anyone want to try?


 I also think modders should be able to submit mods to toady to be rolled up in a release. They would of course have to sign off on it, all DF mods are the IP of taody blah blah blah, but it could work that way i think.

[Silverionmox]

A lot of that could be done with an interface adjustment (only showing rock, instead of different rock types), and a few items the cheaters, noobs and morons new players could take along when they start an expedition (the cauldron of plenty, the everfull flask of wine and the chicken with the steel eggs). They only thing left for a difficulty mode is culling the resident creatures and the sieges. With these thing in place, a player can putz around as much he wants.

[Maw]

I've had some thoughts about this idea, but nothing formed into an overall design.

Basically, Toady already has the mechanism(s) in place to introduce/manage growing complexity.

Example 1: Appoint/Not Appoint a Sherriff.  This simple decision effectively enables/disables the Justice section of the game.  As a player, if you don't want to deal with Justice, mandates, the Hammerer (oh Armok, the Hammerer), then you disable that 'level' of complexity.  You suffer a mild penalty (noble bad thoughts), but it is not game breaking.

Example 2: (possible) Appoint/Not Appoint Tax Collector.  I believe next or future releases are intended to have such positions appointable.  In this case, this enables/disables the economy.  Granted right now this would just be a blessing, but economy is not fully functioning at the moment.  This allows not dealing with the economy section of the game until you the player are ready to deal with it.  Meanwhile, you suffer mild penalties (not have the benefits of the economy section of the game, dwarf bad thoughts because they cannot replace clothing, opportunity cost because they cannot 'own' items to give them good thoughts etc).


The idea is that the player can activate 'in game' the advanced sections of the game to introduce more complexity at the rate they are willing to handle it.  Not activating a section is not game breaking, but does introduce some mild penalties to the player (just an additional bad thought that can be counteracted by good design for good thoughts elsewhere).

That said, I support the idea that mined areas shouldn't result in huge wealth buildup as it currently does.  Reduce the value obtained by general mining; maybe only gain value for exposing/mining 'valuable' economic ores.  Give the new player time to learn about mining etc before introducing the next step of the game (wealth, immigration, ambushes).  Either that, or increase the wealth values that trigger things such as immigration: e.g. immigrants triggered later and you only receive 1-5 in first wave (not 25...) /rant

[Rowanas]

Hmm. Unfortunately unless you want two values for all materials (one for architectural purposes, one for item purposes) you can't have no-value rooms.

[Eidalac]

Hrm.

One issue - what is a "simple machine"?  IMHO, DF only has a few simple machines (levers, plates, pumps, gates/doors and drawbridges), that the player can use to build semi-autonomous death bots or mechanical adders.

Thing is, most of DF -is- simple, but can be built up in complex ways.

What you propose isn't a bad idea, but it's hard to limit the complexity of a system when it's build by the player rather than the game.


That aside, many of those items you listed can be set in the init (economy, sieges) or have mods out (stone/material types), so in theory most of this is doable, but it may be a while before it can be done in a simple new-user friendly way.

[Dr. Melon]

I am thinking about the future, when more complex machine interactions are developed, and have lots of the new powergoals and things; as it stands, DF is quite simple as you say.

[Bricks]

I am thinking about the future, when more complex machine interactions are developed, and have lots of the new powergoals and things; as it stands, DF is quite simple as you say.

I'm a little confused as to what you mean.  Powergoals (as far as I can tell) are specific scenarios, things that should be implemented but might have to be shelved if they seem too hashed or would require a major rewrite of a system.  "Complex machine interactions" is a little vague, as well.  I don't think the envisioned end-game is something like a fully robotic fortress; the mechanisms currently in place are very diverse and simply need some tweaking (pressure plates not being confusing as hell and self-defeating, for example).  How exactly could you 'simplify' each of these when the player isn't required to use them?

[Sizik]

What if you want complex machines, but no economy?

[Blargityblarg]

Someone (I forget who) made a 'Lessim Mogaim' mod (that is, less sim, more game) which comes pretty close, I reckon. One kind of layer stone, various coloured stones and ores, way less gems, etc.

Also, (not speaking from experience here) 2D would probably be fairly simple, given that the complication of z-levels isn't in.