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[Deathworks]

Hi!

Personally, I think it would be better if negative events simply had a stronger impact on immigration. After all, nothing travels as fast as bad news.

Perhaps, making fortress wealth less important and rather go by the number of violent deaths could be an option. And maybe the relationships could also be useful, like a factor where each marriage/lover/friendship relationship adds to the factor and each grudge and so on detracts from it (you know, in real life, would you want to move into a community where distrust and hatred are the norm, or wouldn't a community where people get along very well be much more appealing?). A similar mechanism relating to the happiness state of the dwarves could also be implemented (this would actually be very good for responding to over-stretched infrastructure; once dwarves don't get enough food or bed, their happiness declines).

That's at least the way I see this.

Deathworks

[viskaslietuvai]

quote:Originally posted by Javis:
<STRONG>You people need to learn to plan ahead.</STRONG>

No we don't. We SHOULD learn to plan ahead. But we would rather make this request. And there are more of us.
 

(Sorry for the emoticon. They're normally not my thing. Just wanted to let ya know I'm not a total ass.)

[ChaosFollowing]

Against.

I'm going to have to side with the minority on this one. I don't think you should have direct control over immigration waves, because:

i/ You already have indirect control, re: fortress success = more immigrants

ii/ Immigrant waves aren't something you'd realistically have control over, but something you'd have to deal with.

iii/ The challenge of the unknown is a wonderful thing. Forces you to plan for lots of dwarves. Or let the newcomers starve. I mean really, with all the options at your disposal, why require something as basic as a .ini edit when a dwarf-a-pult, aquarium bedrooms and a dozen other ideas perform the same essential duty, just with more fun and ramafications.

[Javis]

Likewise, I assume that if I'm pumping out masterpiece fishbone earrings and stone harps, I'm going to have a lot of immigrants coming.  If I don't manage to make a bedroom with a complete set of furniture for everyone, it's not big deal, really.  They can sleep in the barracks, or even on the floor somewhere.  Just make sure that you have enough food for each dwarf to eat once and drink twice per season, and you'll be fine.

[vanarbulax]

I would like this a lot, I'd probably play at normal immigration wave or 0 because I've always wanted the fortress to grow slowly instead of massive migration into your fortress from 7 to 31.

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by ChaosFollowing:
[QB]iii/ The challenge of the unknown is a wonderful thing. Forces you to plan for lots of dwarves. Or let the newcomers starve.

It's not about the starvation.  It's about having rooms to give them (not nessessarily a big deal) and giving them JOBS.  You have any idea how hard it is to employ 200 dwarves when 6 of them work with gems (of which I have none), 10 of them miners (two of them legends who can mine rock faster than I can designate it), 14 of them woodworkers/woodcutters (hewing through wood faster than it can be hauled), 8 of them various metalsmiths (all clamoring for the same forge)?  Not to mention the planters, brewers, cooks, fishers, crafters, masons, and mechanics.

It's one reason I've dropped my pop-cap to 100.  And even that's too many if my fortress wealth explodes due to an early artifact.  I can keep about...50 dwarves at any one time employed, but not in an early fort, no, I need a couple years to get that far.

[ChaosFollowing]

quote:Originally posted by Draco18s:
<STRONG>

It's not about the starvation.  It's about having rooms to give them (not nessessarily a big deal) and giving them JOBS.  You have any idea how hard it is to employ 200 dwarves when 6 of them work with gems (of which I have none), 10 of them miners (two of them legends who can mine rock faster than I can designate it), 14 of them woodworkers/woodcutters (hewing through wood faster than it can be hauled), 8 of them various metalsmiths (all clamoring for the same forge)?  Not to mention the planters, brewers, cooks, fishers, crafters, masons, and mechanics.

It's one reason I've dropped my pop-cap to 100.  And even that's too many if my fortress wealth explodes due to an early artifact.  I can keep about...50 dwarves at any one time employed, but not in an early fort, no, I need a couple years to get that far.</STRONG>

Like you yourself admit, starvation and housing are only two of the CHALLENGES associated with immigration waves. Usefulness/employment is another, but it is not insurmountable. Nothing forces you to keep your six jewellers working as such when you have no gems. You have complete control over the situation, and if you have plenty of military, haulers, fortress guards, etc....then any extra work force can be put to future projects, PROVIDED you meet the challenge of preparing for it.

Potentially large immigration waves are not only realistic(for new wealthy fortresses), but they provide part of the challenge of the game. Yes, it's a lot easier to micromanage a smaller number of dwarves, but sudden influxes keep us on our toes and separate the chaff from the wheat.

[vanarbulax]

I don't think the argument is about whether or not immigration is challenging, it's just a nuisance to some and some people prefer a small group of focussed dwarves over a massive amount of unmanageable ones. I personally go crazy when I have more than 2 dwarves idle. It's not like we are asking to remove large immigration waves for everyone just allow us to choose the pace of our growth, it is more of a sandbox game than anything else.

[Javis]

Are there any bad effects from changing the population cap mid-game?  You could scale it up at your own pace then.

[MoonMan]

If you didn't want to limit the amount you could just set the cap to 1000.

Right now I send all my immigrants to The Lava Chamber but it makes me feel like the dwarf Hitler. Also I can't recruit the children so it's kinda of hard to get them in there.

[Entropy]

The little problem I have is having a very successful first year with my 7 doing good work, followed by no less than 23 immigrants.  They grossly overwhelmed me and everyone ended up starving and booze free - which caused tantruming.

Unless there is an actual option to send them away (refusing entry to the new camp does not seem unreasonable), I have to commit mass slaughter (which fills the catacombs), or watch a fort fail in its first year because of being swamped by immigrants.

Perhaps all new immigrants can petition the expedition leader / mayor for permission to stay.  If not, they just stick around as refugees (no different than a diplomat) for a season and depart.  Gives one more job for the leader to actually show leadership, and gives better control over who gets let in (no more fortresses populated by mostly useless jewelers, or being crushed under mass migration).

[ February 24, 2008: Message edited by: Entropy ]

[Mikademus]

One solution, or at least alleviation, would be if each immigrant actually brought some food and booze. When the original settlers came they brought food, and the immigrants much have lived on something. Perhaps they might also bring a tool relevant to their specialisation. (Thinking very laterally, perhaps there should be an option to use immigrants as food!  )

[MoonMan]

"The little problem I have is having a very successful first year with my 7 doing good work, followed by no less than 23 immigrants. They grossly overwhelmed me and everyone ended up starving and booze free - which caused tantruming."

I think my record is when I brought a proficient furnace operator and a proficient metal crafter in my original seven and found a magnetite/platinum vein right next to my lava pipe. I believe I got 31 immigrants.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Eagle of Fire]

I don't get it... Food is the least of my worry in all my games. I usually have one or two legendary farmers planting stuff which can last for at least 100 dwarves.

I usually have to make them stop for a year or two after a while because otherwise I'd have so many plump helmets I would not have any place left in my food stockpiles.

And I take time to grow other plants at the same time too... Like rope reed for example.

That's why I never understand how someone can complain they don't have enough food for all their dwarves. I think the nail been hit on the spot when it been said in this thread that you need to learn to prepare in advance...