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[LegoLord]

Sometimes I really think my country is going downhill fast.  Days when I hear people talking like Taniec and eerr are in this thread are such days.  It's really rather depressing.  Pulling out perfectly benign segments of the bill and just talking about them in a way so as to make it appear deceitful, when the one deceiving is the person talking about the bill rather than the bill itself.  There's a lot of crap illegal aliens don't pay for.  I doubt health care alone will make it significantly worse - especially given the number of illegals there are estimated to be.

The fact that the republicans can get away with such outrageous lies really bothers me.  It's like false advertising.  Does that sound right to you?

If the bill did half the things they said it did, it wouldn't be constitutional and wouldn't even have a chance.  It does though.

[Nilocy]

Its not blatent false advertising. Its that wonderful free right to enterpret anything the way you want to.

[bjlong]

I absolutely love the "Republicans are the only politicians that deceive" vibe that's going on, here. Take a step back, guys, look at it from my point of view.

Both sides are lying. Some people are lying blatantly, some people are lying subtly. This isn't (just) because everyone is flawed, it's because you can't run politics differently. The fact that you've stumbled across three of those lies doesn't mean that the other people aren't lying, it means that you haven't uncovered their lies yet.

For example, the idea that insurance companies just want to "fuck you" is a lie. If it was true, then they'd be out of business in a heartbeat.

There are plenty of lies, on both sides. It's a necessity. You have to get your message across in ten seconds, so you cheat by ruthlessly cutting and fabricating until you get the message that you want people to believe. In the end, this might get them to vote the right way, but for the wrong reasons.

[LegoLord]

The lie about health care that you provided as an example from the supporting side is not one I recall hearing from democratic politicians.  I've heard it, but then, I've heard it from just about everyone (except politicians).  It is, however, true that they are the usual profit-maximization driven company, and maximizing profits naturally involves reducing expenses.  Which in insurance companies involves minimizing payouts to customers.  Therefore it will probably be harder to get good insurance for a good price.  This is why even insured people can go bankrupt from medical bills.

It is also true that just because one side has lies on it doesn't mean the other side doesn't.  However, if the lies from, say, the republicans are more noticed than the other side, then quite clearly those that lie on the republicans are more prominent in their party than those who lie on the democratic side (and by lie I mean spread false information, not stand by).

[Taniec]

Sometimes I really think my country is going downhill fast.  Days when I hear people talking like Taniec and eerr are in this thread are such days.  It's really rather depressing.  Pulling out perfectly benign segments of the bill and just talking about them in a way so as to make it appear deceitful, when the one deceiving is the person talking about the bill rather than the bill itself.  There's a lot of crap illegal aliens don't pay for.  I doubt health care alone will make it significantly worse - especially given the number of illegals there are estimated to be.

The fact that the republicans can get away with such outrageous lies really bothers me.  It's like false advertising.  Does that sound right to you?

If the bill did half the things they said it did, it wouldn't be constitutional and wouldn't even have a chance.  It does though.

So I am scum of the nation because I disagree with the bill in question? Republicans lie but democrats don't? This is just unreal. I learned an important life lesson today...never discuss politics ever again in any setting. Here I am pointing stuff out from the bill and citing data which apparently don't mean jack. Even on a forum such as this I would think people would be more civil than to call me a lying republican and I'm the reason this country is going down the moral toilet. What makes you think I'm a republican...just because I don't like the bill? Did you fail to see that I VOTED for Obama on election day who last I checked was a democrat? Here I am trying to discuss what is best for the nation as a whole but the only response I am getting is that my family must be wealthy and I am some right-wing nut who only cares about money, big corporations, and that I don't care about the little man in all of this.

Maybe I shouldn't care at all. I should just blindly listen to what everyone else is saying and not think for myself. This bill will fix everything in health care and be damned how it effects the economy, veterans, and the little man.

Seriously, what am I lying about? All facts I posted I checked with wikipedia, the wall street journal, or other internet articles. I didn't go to shit like FoxNews or CNN for obvious reasons. I went the bill itself and highlited portions of it yet I am still being called a lier and scum of the Earth. Why are eerr and I the bad guys here? Would The Onion be a more reliable source that I should use?

We aren't even discussing the bill anymore, but I have to defend myself from being called a lying republican. Fantastic.

[LegoLord]

You pointed out one section and said  "Doesn't seem so bad, right?" as though about to point out some major flaw, and then what you said next didn't seem to point out any real flaw; it seemed like you were merely trying to place doubt on those who read.

One lie:  "So I am scum of the nation . . . ?" stated despite no mention of such a thing.  Another problem, the news that seems so biased towards making Obama seem bad is the news in general, foxnews is merely the worst about it.  Controversy sells, and since the republicans seem to be making that, the media goes along with it.

Does it not strike you as odd that their are non-Americans talking about America's public healthcare and find this whole debate silly?  That these non-Americans actually know something about the so-called issues?  That in several different countries with different healthcare systems, private healthcare still persists and flourishes?  That people with insurance can go bankrupt from one accident that insurance covers?

No, you are not the scum of the nation, but the nation is falling behind every other nation.  And this strange adittude towards public health care -- even just in general, ignoring complaints about specific plans -- is not helping the situations.  America is going backwards.

[Vester]

You know, this is funny. I'm pretty sure the entire world (not counting the middle east) thinks that the entire Republican party is composed now merely of anti-intellectual bombasts? Because that's who the party has been given over to - blowhards, who scream about an issue rather than going into the nitty-gritty.

Do you have any idea why many of us (foreigners included) think the Republicans are liars? Could it be, maybe, that they have a track record of using hype, disinformation, and generally insidious tactics to destroy their opponents? Take that Al Gore mess, when he said, "I created the Internet", among other things. Of course the right-wingers jumped right all over that, branding him a liar. That he was one of the senators who funded Arpanet, which would eventually become the Internet, was immaterial to them.

There's just so much ugliness in your political discourse nowadays. Rather than trying to find common ground, you have people like Sarah Palin (who makes me embarassed to share her gender) spouting half-educated nonsense - that people believe. And I'm not referring to the stuff she said during the campaign, I'm referring to stuff like "The Health Care bill has a Death Panel provision". Republicans aren't to blame for everything, but their tone and message tends to be incredibly unhelpful.

[Heron TSG]

Sometimes I really think my country is going downhill fast.  Days when I hear people talking like Taniec and eerr are in this thread are such days.  It's really rather depressing.  Pulling out perfectly benign segments of the bill and just talking about them in a way so as to make it appear deceitful, when the one deceiving is the person talking about the bill rather than the bill itself.  There's a lot of crap illegal aliens don't pay for.  I doubt health care alone will make it significantly worse - especially given the number of illegals there are estimated to be.

The fact that the republicans can get away with such outrageous lies really bothers me.  It's like false advertising.  Does that sound right to you?

If the bill did half the things they said it did, it wouldn't be constitutional and wouldn't even have a chance.  It does though.

So I am scum of the nation because I disagree with the bill in question? Republicans lie but democrats don't? This is just unreal. I learned an important life lesson today...never discuss politics ever again in any setting. Here I am pointing stuff out from the bill and citing data which apparently don't mean jack. Even on a forum such as this I would think people would be more civil than to call me a lying republican and I'm the reason this country is going down the moral toilet. What makes you think I'm a republican...just because I don't like the bill? Did you fail to see that I VOTED for Obama on election day who last I checked was a democrat? Here I am trying to discuss what is best for the nation as a whole but the only response I am getting is that my family must be wealthy and I am some right-wing nut who only cares about money, big corporations, and that I don't care about the little man in all of this.

Maybe I shouldn't care at all. I should just blindly listen to what everyone else is saying and not think for myself. This bill will fix everything in health care and be damned how it effects the economy, veterans, and the little man.

Seriously, what am I lying about? All facts I posted I checked with wikipedia, the wall street journal, or other internet articles. I didn't go to shit like FoxNews or CNN for obvious reasons. I went the bill itself and highlited portions of it yet I am still being called a lier and scum of the Earth. Why are eerr and I the bad guys here? Would The Onion be a more reliable source that I should use?

We aren't even discussing the bill anymore, but I have to defend myself from being called a lying republican. Fantastic.

Yay free thinkers!

America is going backwards.

Only because everyone THINKS it is.

[ToonyMan]

PRO-PRO--PROP----PROPPPAA---PROPAGANDA!!!

[Jreengus]

Does anyone get the feeling Taniec is trying to draw attention away from the actual topic and at the same time invalidate his opponents arguments by deliberately interpreting as much as he can as personal insults?

[Taniec]

Sometimes I really think my country is going downhill fast.  Days when I hear people talking like Taniec and eerr are in this thread are such days.

Right, so this isn't an insult?

[Vester]

Does anyone get the feeling Taniec is trying to draw attention away from the actual topic and at the same time invalidate his opponents arguments by deliberately interpreting as much as he can as personal insults?

I don't think so, he did after all have valid arguments that he drew straight from the Bill itself.

This is what I was talking about though, the tone gets ugly.

[Jreengus]

I wasn't trying to say you haven't been insulted at all, it just seemed from the tone of your post that this entire thread had been about bashing you. Which it hadn't. Anyhow seems like this thread could really use a lock before it gets much worse.

[Vester]

Yeah, political discussion is a no-go on the Internet.

[Zangi]

Generic political 'debate' on the internets:

The equivalent of talking to a brick wall with both sides unwilling to even consider the other side's point(s), only looking for a way to argue or ignore said point(s).

Now to dig my head into this cesspool...  (Not recommended by your local health practitioner.)

As for stopping illegal immigrants from using the emergency room? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I'd consider harm can be done by doing nothing about it while still having the power to...  and funny how judgment can be diluted by the sweet promise of currency...

But, considering it...  its a hypocrite thing to do... to use that as a reason to defend the use of the emergency room, while myself being supportive of issues that are the opposite of this:

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

Do I win?