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Author Topic: This American Health Debate thing  (Read 12771 times)

Jude

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2009, 01:40:37 pm »

Socialism requires people to be interdependent and socially responsible for strangers, which Americans hate. There's a deep-seated American need to be independent from others in many ways and especially not to be picking up the bill for other people, especially if it's for some bad choice another person made.
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Aqizzar

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2009, 01:45:19 pm »

You say that like America is the only country in the world where people don't give a crap about each other.

Oh God dammit, I said I wouldn't post here again...
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ToonyMan

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2009, 01:49:38 pm »

I CALL SCAPE GOAT.
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LegoLord

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2009, 02:39:49 pm »

Socialism requires people to be interdependent and socially responsible for strangers, which Americans hate. There's a deep-seated American need to be independent from others in many ways and especially not to be picking up the bill for other people, especially if it's for some bad choice another person made.
Not really.  I know a lot of people who aren't like that.  In fact, that's really a more right-wing viewpoint.  Just look at what party is in the majority in the government and why.

At least as far as political views go.  How they actually act is a different matter.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 02:41:34 pm by LegoLord »
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Wiles

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2009, 03:46:13 pm »

I can say that I have benefited greatly from the public health system in Canada. I have a friend who lives in the United States and has the same disease I have, he is in his mid twenties like myself and already has a 5 figure debt because of his illness.

I have never personally had to wait long for surgery nor have I had to wait long periods of time to see a specialist when I was very ill. I know the system is not perfect, there are problems with it, but I am thankful that I wasn't born in the United States, else I would have struggled greatly with financial difficulties and probably not have gotten the same standard of care as I did here because I would have not been able to afford it.
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Jude

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2009, 04:12:22 pm »

You say that like America is the only country in the world where people don't give a crap about each other.

Oh God dammit, I said I wouldn't post here again...

it's a much bigger part of American ideals than a lot of other countries I've been to. It's sort of based in the principles the country was founded on.
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LegoLord

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2009, 05:22:55 pm »

And so we should just roll with it even though it's a bad way of going about things in this particular case?
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Ampersand

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2009, 06:44:48 pm »

The real problem with Healthcare in Canada really has nothing to do with how it has been socialized, but rather that it has a relatively small population spread across a very large area. The father of one of my friends is the only radiologist in an entire Windsor area of New Brunswick.
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!!&!!

ChairmanPoo

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2009, 09:15:10 pm »

Somewhat off topic: does this lack of doctors translate into big figure salaries for doctors that go work in Canada?
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Enzo

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2009, 09:20:10 pm »

No, Canada actually has a shortage of doctors (and nurses) because they make more money if they move to the states.
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Shrike

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2009, 10:18:58 pm »

As the son of medical professionals and a liberal, I feel compelled to post.

At this point, the health care 'debate' isn't.

It's a misinformation/defense cycle that only serves to make doubt, and that's what the misinformation-providing right wing is hoping for.

I'm all for a national health care system or insurance (and big pharma) regulations to minimize administrative and PR overhead to reduce costs to consumers, and encouraging more people to become medical professionals.

It's amusing (in a very sad way) to see how simplistic the reasoning is; Sarah Palin calls end of life counselling a "Death panel" and then somehow, it sounds like Obama's planning to have the elderly killed to cut costs. "WE KNEW HE WAS OUT TO GET US AFTER ALL!" When really, it's asking them to prepare for the end of their lives, and think about how much it will cost them to keep living. Yes, there could easily be pressure felt to have a pull-the-plug request, but it's the patient/someone with power of attorney deciding.

Meanwhile, the "Death panels" exist in the for-profit insurance companies. Not in the sense of 'We think everyone should get a living will, and determine if they'd like to die peacefully under medical supervision', but in the sense of "Trying to keep this person alive will cut into our profits, so drop their coverage without warning and let them fend for themselves."

I don't think it's ethical to charge someone for a service, then drop them and keep the money they've paid the moment they start really needing that coverage. And in a capitalistic/free market society, if one company can get away with it, why shouldn't everyone else do the same thing? Maximize profits by minimizing risks. To the shareholders and board, it doesn't matter if you're selling computers or determining who should get critically important medical care. 

I don't think it's ethical for drugs to be made with 500%, 2000%, or even higher profits on each pill, just so the executives can show profitability and then push more ads onto TV that make Americans into hypochondriacs, then claim that price controls would affect the research budget. Their research budget is LESS than the advertising budget.

On the same theme, when the ads tell the guy who doesn't think he's got enough vim in bed to ask his doctor about it, and the doctor says 'no' (for example, because of potential conflicts with another drug), what happens?

In America, the customer is always right, and so the patient can threaten to go to another provider, taking money away from someone who is doing their job and following their oath in order to encourage more prescriptions. HMOs add in a whole new layer of administrative overhead and screwed up pay rules that encourage specialists to not send patients to appropriate doctors, because they get paid less or nothing for a referral, despite their time in diagnosing the issue. There is an incentive to provide worse care for higher rates. There's also a story of a bad surgeon being kept over a good one, because the bad surgeon's patients kept getting worse and had to come back in for more surgery.



It's not free market anymore, it's price fixing and spaghettified logic about prices, creating repeat customers in violation of the Hippocratic oath, and putting a price on human lives.

And yet, all that is ignored because the right wing and lobbyists are able to spew out lies about anything that tries to change the status quo. They aren't trying to justify that our current system is totally awesome, but that any alternatives are worse, stopping debate before anything of possible merit can be found.

Do I have the answers? Heck no. But I'm not going to go stop people from trying to find ones better than what we have.
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Realmfighter

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2009, 01:22:46 am »

Yep, let us have a system like in the UK where it takes MONTHS to get simple procedures done. Let us have a system where instead of healthcare being 1/6 of the economy it becomes 5/6 of the economy.
I have no idea about the UK system, but 5/6 of the economy? Even 1/6 doesn't sound right (EI 1/6 of the money flow in UK comes from healthcare. I'm probably wrong)

I am not a lawmaker nor I am an educated citizen, but to nationalize healthcare is not a good idea.
How would you know that, be uneducated?

There is a healthcare system in the state of Mass. which resembles the bill they are trying to pass. It is doing terrible last I heard.
can't comment

I am not opposed to healthcare reform, but this bill puts the government in a position where it shouldn't be in.
Better than a faceless company with no care for anything but profit

You have canadian citizens waiting 7-8 hours to get a physical and months for surgery.
Really? I went to get on a few months ago, and it only took a few hours to get in. As for the long wait time for surgery, you only get long wait times for thing that won't kill you.

I have seen articles where canadians jump the border to get their procedures done here in the US.
Links or it didn't happen

Hold on, i remember a something i read in a different forum that Would be good if everone here to see
Big spoiler
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 01:38:11 am by realmfighter »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2009, 01:57:43 am »

I live in a country with socialized healthcare and the wait for normal examinations rarely exceeds 30 mins, and more often is around 15.
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Taniec

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2009, 02:44:58 am »

You all want affordable and quality healthcare, eh? I present to you:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The guy who was making it happen since 1991. Heart surgery for $129.95. No health care system can beat that.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 02:48:51 am by Taniec »
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Duke 2.0

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Re: This American Health Debate thing
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2009, 02:52:29 am »

 "Hi everybody! First, I'll need you all to sign these medical waivers. I'm telling you, with all these regulations and rules coming out, it's becoming impossible to be a doctor. Anyway, onto the procedure. First, I need you to eat some of these greaseburgers to inflate your heart and make locating it easier! Then I'll give you some sleepy gas and cut you open with this knife. A few hours later and you'll be in horrific recovery for weeks."

 Screw the topic, lets de-rail in this direction.
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Buck up friendo, we're all on the level here.
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MIERDO MILLAS DE VIBORAS FURIOSAS PARA ESTRANGULARTE MUERTO
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