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[Fossaman]

I'm sorry, but my disbelief is going to have to be suspended pretty high up in the air before I'll accept happy-magic-lung dwarves. Other things have to live in caves as well. And when you get dwarves staying underground for months or years at a time with no fresh air source, no matter how fancy your hand-waving is or what kind of phlebotinum they have in their lungs, they should eventually turn blue and die.

(Sniped by Pilsu, but I'm posting it anyway, dangit.)

[Sordid]

Obviously a system needs to be put into place for monitoring oxygen and CO2 levels (and air currents in general). Practical upshot: asphyxiation chambers!

[MrWiggles]

I'm sorry, but my disbelief is going to have to be suspended pretty high up in the air before I'll accept happy-magic-lung dwarves. Other things have to live in caves as well. And when you get dwarves staying underground for months or years at a time with no fresh air source, no matter how fancy your hand-waving is or what kind of phlebotinum they have in their lungs, they should eventually turn blue and die.

(Sniped by Pilsu, but I'm posting it anyway, dangit.)

Why?

Why do you want Dwarves to have human needs and human biological failings?

When it quite clear, they can spend their entire life underground with naught a worry of co2 levels.

Are you also annoyed that there an insect that can be milked? And that milk can be turned into a cheese?

[Rowanas]

Actually, in a thread about dwarven physiology I worked out (using my least favourite science, chemistry) that dwarves could very well live on carbon dioxide. Same thing stands though, what happens when the CO2 runs out?

[Fossaman]

Why do you want Dwarves to have human needs and human biological failings?

I don't. But I do want them to have the failings intrinsic to every form of life as we know it: A dependence on specific chemical processes to sustain their existence. That means eating, drinking, and respiration (in the case of every large animal known to science). Respiration will eventually consume all of the essential gas for any specific creature, whether because the gas has been fixed into the body of the creature or because it has been chemically altered so it no longer functions in the metabolism.

I feel a need to emphasize a point:

Other things have to live in caves as well.

Dwarves take along their dogs, their cats, their cows...and as the game is they do just fine sealed in a room where they can't move for years on end. Absurd. For other reasons than breathing, of course, but that's the one that would probably kill them first.

And no, I don't object to purring maggots. What's unreasonable about purring maggots? Can you give me a single reason why purring maggots couldn't exist? I'm pretty sure you can't, because we know virtually nothing about purring maggots. But I see nothing inherently wrong with an insect species that has become neotenic and stays a squishy mass that dwarves can squeeze a protein rich fluid out of.

[Rowanas]

Purring maggots are actually an easily viable organism even without the assumption of neotenous development. When the maggot prepares to pupate and use up all of the protein-filled fluid  that it stores in it's body, dwarves take it and stimulate a defensive mechanism similar to the loss of tail exhibited by many lizards. The purring maggot is then allowed to feed until it reaches pupation, and forced to defend itself over and over, providing a near endless source of thick, rich fluid perfect for making cheese.

[lucusLoC]

Woo, multi topic thread! Awsome.

Well, might as well toss in my 2 cents.

First off, i think ventalation, while it would be cool, should be a verry low prority. Perhaps even a DF 1.01 development thing. It is horribly complex to track, and brings verry little to gamplay. In my oppinion the lighting arc is a way higher priority, and even that is a fair way down on my personal list of what DF needs.

If others dissagree then i think we need to keep it simple, so we do not have to wind up simulating a gas exchane system. A simple vent structure, a fan by open air, and a pipeing system that airiates a large set volume, that flows out from the origen point. So a fan can ariate 1000 tiles, or whatever, and it is a simple volume fill calculation. Fans can be placed on any fresh air tile, and propigate that fresh air, like a repeater. When calculating the fill pattern, tiles that are already fresh will not be counted, so 3 fans placed right next to each other will fill a (contiguios) volume of 3000 tiles. Pipes will deliver air to where you want the fill to start from. Stail air would not be deadly, but would slow down work and cause significant unhappy thoughts. Only special "deadly air pockets" would be lethal. These would only form, with a very low spawn rate, when there is not a fresh air tile within, say, 200 tiles. They would spread and dissapate like misma. Open air tiles would also count as a fresh air source, but would only fill 500 tiles or so.

We would also need a view mode to show fresh, stale, and potentialy dangerously stale air.

[MrWiggles]

Why do you want Dwarves to have human needs and human biological failings?

I don't. But I do want them to have the failings intrinsic to every form of life as we know it: A dependence on specific chemical processes to sustain their existence. That means eating, drinking, and respiration (in the case of every large animal known to science). Respiration will eventually consume all of the essential gas for any specific creature, whether because the gas has been fixed into the body of the creature or because it has been chemically altered so it no longer functions in the metabolism.

That the thing though, this isn't the life that is known. Dwarfs are alien. Would it be odd for a creature that be able to processes solely co2, or process a combination co2 & o2, or using one well enough in the absence of the other. Yea, but life is infinite in diversity. Life has shown us on our pale blue dot time and time again that it should never be undermined in its limit.

I feel a need to emphasize a point:

Other things have to live in caves as well.

Dwarves take along their dogs, their cats, their cows...and as the game is they do just fine sealed in a room where they can't move for years on end. Absurd. For other reasons than breathing, of course, but that's the one that would probably kill them first.

I forgot about the top side animals, although animal mgm. is sorta not really implement. The animals not eating is really just a quick fix to come back over. Although how the misc. animals reacts are sideline on to how the dorf reacts. What an interesting way to have fun though, with worring about the live stock.

And no, I don't object to purring maggots. What's unreasonable about purring maggots? Can you give me a single reason why purring maggots couldn't exist? I'm pretty sure you can't, because we know virtually nothing about purring maggots. But I see nothing inherently wrong with an insect species that has become neotenic and stays a squishy mass that dwarves can squeeze a protein rich fluid out of.

Insects don't have milk, its only found in from mammals. the Casein protein needs to coagulate, and its entirely just found in mammals. 


There also dragons that breath fire, has six limbs. There are no large predators with six limbs its not found in nature on earth. It violates common descent for earth.

Then, it a good thing this isn't earth and therefore shouldn't be restricted to how life is found to work on Earth.

[King_of_the_weasels]

I'd care about ventilation more of a way to get rid of miasma then a breathing thing honestly. Of course I want to get rid of it more for my expense then my dwarfs,  It's hard to do stuff when there's large areas of purple filling up my screen.

Changing topic a bit...

This reminded me of when in Swiss Family Robinson they found a cave that had been filled (or something like that) so that there was a large open space inside but no air,  they solved this problem by shooting fireworks into the cave after penetrating it (I'm not sure why they had fireworks, the book was filled with a lot of "But wait we just happen to..."s) so technically dwarfs could use (seriously the dad knew how to skin a kangaroo with a syringe and a knife) the same method when they strike chasms or something along those lines.  That would of course require implementing some sort of rocket system (which would lead to FUN) and give us a reason to use saltpeter.  Of course that would probably not happen. (but would be crazy FUN)

[Sordid]

I still maintain that the inclusion of gunpowder and related mining and weapons technology is a must for future DF development. Ballistas? How about BLOODY ROCKET LAUNCHERS!

[Rowanas]

But Toady (armok be with him) says NO TO GUNPOWDER.

[King_of_the_weasels]

Throne built 1 z level above barrel filled with gunpowder + Urist Mcastronaut + fire = FUN

[Sordid]

But Toady (armok be with him) says NO TO GUNPOWDER.

That's why we need to rant at him about it. Everyone cracks eventually...
Personally, I say no to magic. Technolgy opens up the possibility of a myriad of cool gadgets and stuff to play around with. Magic? Okay, so you have NPCs who can throw fireballs... and then what? The problem with magic is that it's magic, it doesn't have rules you could use to build stuff. Either the designer allows you to do something with it, or he doesn't. You can combine pumps and axles and water wheels and a whole bunch of other stuff to make a ridiculously overengineered Rube Goldberg death machine, which is exactly where the fun is in DF. I don't really see such a system working for magic. I say yes to anything that will increase the potential for creative thinking on part of the player, and gunpowder seems to be a perfect candidate. Magic, not so much.

[Silverionmox]

Technology opens up the possibility of a myriad of cool gadgets and stuff to play around with. Magic? Okay, so you have NPCs who can throw fireballs... and then what?

And yet you ask precisely for fireball-technology...

Toady said that he was against throwing fireballs as well, i.e. using magic as brute force technology. There's plenty of material in the various magic threads alone that offers plenty of other possibilities other than using it as a portable cannon.

[Rowanas]

I'm fairly heavily against high magic. Magic should, for the most part, involve the banks of a river overflowing, or make smelter reactions take no flux and stuff like that.