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[RAM]

Too cheap, the americans try to shoot you and you escape to a tropical island where everybody loves you.

[Sensei]

I'm sure that would be interpreted as 'The Americans shoot you and you think you go to a tropical island where everybody loves you.'

[Aqizzar]

As long as this thread is still alive, I'd like to say that the notion "people will only enjoy a game if they're on the winning side" is provably wrong in the history of videogaming, where the Pyrrhic victory has always been popular.

Remember the ending of DOOM?  Congratulations, you killed the Cyberdemon, the Spider Mastermind, and all the worst beasties Hell could throw at you, so here's the door home!  By the way, WALLHAX Hell's coming with you.

Remember the ending of Quake 2?  Congratulations, you killed the Makron, blew up half of Strogg City, and saved the invasion force.  Now you're stuck in a lifeboat on Strogg, surrounded by legions of enemies.  Oh, and we're going to come back in a decade with a sequel that retcons all that into meaninglessness.

Remember the ending of Max Payne?  Congratulations, you killed the frosty bitch that ultimately murdered your family and more or less destroyed a couple criminal empires.  However, you'll never be able to prove your story.  And there's still drugs on the streets.  And you still have loads of enemies.  And you're going to prison for the rest of your life for being a serial killing psycho.  (I haven't seen the sequels, so I don't know what kind of asspull they used to fix all that.)

Remember the ending of every installment of Half-Life?  Congratulations, you slew the horrible human-munching forces of another dimension.  Only not really, because there's another one.  And another one.  And we're depowering all your weapons.  And we're going to kill everything you know and everyone you love.

Anyone who saw that German general's speech at the end of Band of Brothers knows that, especially by the end, for the German soldiers it wasn't about fighting for Hitler or Nazism or even so much for Germany itself.  It was for saving their lives and their brothers in arms.  The same reason every sane soldier keeps fighting, even in a war they can't win - to not let their mates down and not disappoint their leaders.

So what would the ending look like?  Congratulations, you an absolute badass and fought your way out of Berlin and the Russian advance!  However, Germany was doomed from the start and is now destroyed.  And you're probably a POW, until the reconstruction needs you or something.  And everything you fought for was a murderous lie that will brand you a monster for the next five decades.  But hey, at least you're alive and your squaddies love you.

[Sensei]

That's what I said. Then again, not that people listened. I'll just stop this train of thought before I sound like a douche.

Also, he breaks out in the Max Payne sequels and he's still a psycho with terrible inner demons. I remember reading something about levels where you literally fight said demons in your mind (like Psychonauts, but not). Didn't play it though.

[dreiche2]

@Aqizzar

Well, my objection to a Wehrmacht FPS wasn't based on the "losing is no fun argument", but I'd like to address some things you said:

First of all, a Pyrrhic victory is still a victory (not all your examples seem to be Pyrrhic victories, though, but anyway). Also, with all the examples you mentioned, at least it wasn't clear from the start that you would not be able to "fully" win. With a WWII game, you know the outcome already.

Anyone who saw that German general's speech at the end of Band of Brothers knows that, especially by the end, for the German soldiers it wasn't about fighting for Hitler or Nazism or even so much for Germany itself.  It was for saving their lives and their brothers in arms.  The same reason every sane soldier keeps fighting, even in a war they can't win - to not let their mates down and not disappoint their leaders.

I'm pretty sure the only sane thing to do, especially at the end, would have been to desert/surrender, not dying pointlessly as cannon fodder together with children soldiers (watch Downfall or The Bridge to get an idea).

So what would the ending look like?  Congratulations, you an absolute badass and fought your way out of Berlin and the Russian advance!  However, Germany was doomed from the start and is now destroyed.  And you're probably a POW, until the reconstruction needs you or something.  And everything you fought for was a murderous lie that will brand you a monster for the next five decades.  But hey, at least you're alive and your squaddies love you.

In all your examples, you achieved at least some form of victory. And surely none of them had you fighting for a historic, genocidal evil in a war that you know you will lose...  Yeah you could say defense in the end is a worthy motive, but again, in none of your example you failed (and predictably so) at exactly what you set out to do...

And for the Berlin scenario, I doubt you can make a fun fps basically only around the motivation of "not getting imprisoned by Russians"....

[Heron TSG]

It's less of being imprisoned and more of being shot, actually.

[Il Palazzo]

You cold make a Thief-like game about some Berliner woman trying not to get caught(and gangbanged) by Soviets. That would be fun. Make her Hitler's secretary for extra points. Or even better, Eva Braun!
"For years you've been manipulating Hitler into doing your biding, silently pulling strings from the shadows. Now the fortunes are against you, you must find your way out from this trap that Berlin has become. You must use your stealth, your wit and your amazing kung-fu(why not?) skillz to survive."

[Sensei]

IMO, knowing your side will lose is no more lame than knowing you're going to win.

And the fact that your character is fighting a genocidal war he doesn't necessarily want is the point, if I'm not mistaken. A point given in narrative, that could be summed up to 'the Wehrmacht were not all evil'. Must every shooter require your enemy to have swastikas or red glowing masks or be aliens with segmented jaws?

[a1s]

It's less of being imprisoned and more of being shot, actually.

Actually getting imprisoned by the soviets could be worse then getting shot- if they sent their own people to concentration camps (not much different then Germany's own labor camps), what would they do to a German POW?
Their fears were well founded, out of every 100 POW taken by the soviets 18 would die before being released (this is mirrored by over 40% death rate for Red Army soldiers in German camps, so don't feel bad for the Germans.) In addition to that (though it was impossible for them to know that) after the war USSR turned many prisoners over to it's own justice system to be processed for 'war crimes' (and sent to labor camps), virtually none of whom were acquitted.

[Servant Corps]

I just discovered Warfare 1944, the sequel to the flash game "Warfare 1917". Like Warfare 1917, you get to choose to work with the Allied Forces or the Central Powers/Axis Forces, and as per forma, I'm starting with the Werhmanct campagin. The campagin starts you off with this text:

"The Allies has mounted a huge offensive along the coast with the assistance of their navy. Hold this position to delay the attack! We must stop them here!"

Aqizzar, you wanted a FPS rather than an strategy game, but at least now the Wehrmacht is getting some loving.

[a1s]

Like Warfare 1977

was that the one about the Angolan civil war?

Aqizzar, you wanted a FPS rather than an strategy game, but at least now the Wehrmacht is getting some loving.

There are numerous strategy games that feature playable Wermacht, including Panzer General which only features the German campaign (although you can play as the allies in the scenarios). (as was mentioned before)

[RAM]

Panzer General uses alternate endings, one of these days I am going to have to try recreating history, as opposed to savescumming mercilessly...

[Christes]

Hahaha, I'm with you there.  Panzer General is a game that will kick your ass, but you can't stop playing.

But yeah, as mention before, in non-FPS games there really isn't the taboo on the Wehrmacht.  In a game like HOI, Germany is the most popular side, hands down.  It's strange - shouldn't being a commander for Nazi Germany be more taboo than a mere soldier?

[Phantom]

What about the lesser nations?
The polish got their officers slaughtered, but had to fight both the germans and soviets, then the finnish, they got invaded by russia, and their ally, germany, didn't do crap, even when the russians were attacking mannerhim line.

[Il Palazzo]

What about the lesser nations?
The polish got their officers slaughtered, but had to fight both the germans and soviets, then the finnish, they got invaded by russia, and their ally, germany, didn't do crap, even when the russians were attacking mannerhim line.

Hey, don't forget that when Poland was invaded, their allies, Brits and the French didn't do crap too!

However, playing as a Pole could be interesting in a way - you get a depressing start when your army is decimated and your country ends up occupied. Then you try and reach allied forces, where you fight to exact revenge, ultimately winning the war, but it turns out to be a phyrric victory for your nation.
There's probably exactly zero FPS games that let you do that, though.