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[Il Palazzo]

Why not make a game with alternative war outcomes possible? You could actually fight a winning war for the Germans.
Or one could focus on just on episode of the war, like say, Stalingrad. (like Red Orchestra did, if I'm not mistaken)

And whatever you say about the Germans/Werhmaht/SS/Nazis, their uniforms were just uber-cool. The best design of all armies, IMO. Is that not enough of a reason to make a game?

[IndonesiaWarMinister]

Why not make a game with alternative war outcomes possible? You could actually fight a winning war for the Germans.
Or one could focus on just on episode of the war, like say, Stalingrad. (like Red Orchestra did, if I'm not mistaken)

And whatever you say about the Germans/Werhmaht/SS/Nazis, their uniforms were just uber-cool. The best design of all armies, IMO. Is that not enough of a reason to make a game?

THAT IS A COOL ENOUGH REASON.

I'M SO GOING TO MAKE ONE.

(Nazis are hailed in these parts of the world)

[RAM]

I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry for any redundancy.
Panzer General is a pretty good example of what you need to do to make a German centred WWII game. You need to sell it, most FPSes sell themselves by being the good guys. Most games I have encountered are aimed at an allied audience so they have allied characters, it is just easier to get people enthused about it that way. A Wehrmacht game needs to have something other than "go team" to keep its audience going. You could try to be artistic about it, but I don't think publishers have much interest in artistic FPSes.
 I think the way to do it is to focus on the cool stuff. Who wants to bravely charge in a sherman, hoping that you will be one of the lucky ones who get close enough to take a shot, when you could dominate the field in a tiger or panther? Who wants D-Day when you can have Blitzkrieg? Who wants a crummy old Mustang when you could have a Jet Fighter? I think that the German forces are much more appropriate to an FPS then any of the allies are, they just don't have the PR for it. Well, also the whole 'not winning' thing, but games are meant to get harder towards the end...

[a1s]

I think the way to do it is to focus on the cool stuff. Who wants to bravely charge in a sherman, hoping that you will be one of the lucky ones who get close enough to take a shot, when you could dominate the field in a tiger or panther? Who wants D-Day when you can have Blitzkrieg? Who wants a crummy old Mustang when you could have a Jet Fighter?

While the Wunderwaffles are really cool, they have no place in an FPS (well I suppose they do in a Flashpoint kind of FPS, but they would still not be the focus of the game). And aside from the uniforms, German footsoldiers didn't really have better equipment then the Allies.

[ChairmanPoo]

And whatever you say about the Germans/Werhmaht/SS/Nazis, their uniforms were just uber-cool. The best design of all armies,

That's what you get when you get Hugo Boss to design your uniforms.

No, really

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B00E4DF153FF936A2575BC0A961958260

Why not make a game with alternative war outcomes possible?

Yeah, why not? after all, many strategy WW2 games do allow that (HoI, for instance). And I think enough time has passed to approach the matter.

[Aqizzar]

No kidding.  You want to know how the Nazis conned all of Germany into their insane deathmarch to history?  Because they had loads of fashion designers, crowd controllers, and occultists who all knew the one principle.

Good is no substitute for Evil with Style.

You saddle up with a full length coat, peaked cap, jackboots, skull pins, chrome regalia, sinister gas masks, infrared sights, chain guns, and black leather everything under a bloody red flag and you'll want to conquer the world too.

[ChairmanPoo]

Suddenly I got reminded of Norman Spinrad's novel, "the Iron dream"

[Virtz]

And aside from the uniforms, German footsoldiers didn't really have better equipment then the Allies.

Except the first assault rifles? Better machineguns? Different grenades? They might not have been all-around better (f.e. MP40 design dissallowing prone position, rifles being highly accurate and powerful but slow compared to American semi-autos), but at least it'd definately be different fighting as them.

Also, on the topic of what is and what isn't accepted in the gaming industry:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

From the Wolfenstein RPG for the iPhone. 

[a1s]

Also, on the topic of what is and what isn't accepted in the gaming industry:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

From the Wolfenstein RPG for the iPhone. 

is that... Zorg?

[jnecros]

The bottom line is that people like things to be black and white, good vs. evil..and for whatever reason it is nearly universal at this point that the WW2 era German military are looked at as the 'bad guy' by most people outside the educated or maybe those who watch the History Channel. The game industry is always under a microscope, for example Left 4 Dead got slammed as being racist because there are a few black zombies, which is ridiculous considering that one of the main characters is African American: http://www.destructoid.com/left-4-dead-2-is-racist-because-several-zombies-are-black-139960.phtml. Was everyone in the German army evil during WW2? Hardly. Did they commit warcrimes? Sure so did the Russian, Americans, British ect. It is the nature of war. But because, in general, people who live in most developed nations have been taught through movies, TV shows, books and even the education system that WW2 era Germany was bad, evil and monstrous, making a FPS that challenges this belief is asking for legal trouble. Pure logic might not play into account, but market logic does. The game would be sniffed out by somebody during development or shortly after and thrust into the media spotlight, most of the 'public' will only see the glorification of the 'bad guy' and somebody will sue the damn game company. Never mind that fact that a FPS is kind of fucked up to begin with, running around shooting shit is fun and all but seriously, many people would let their kids play Left 4 Dead or Grand Theft Auto with a clear conscious, these same people will freak out over a damn breast being shown on TV...I don't really get it, but I understand that it is a result of social conditioning. 

[dreiche2]

Sorry I think a Wehrmacht focused FPS wouldn't realistically work for so many reasons, practical and theoretical ones.

First, in practice FPS are usually big budget games with large publishers behind them which need to make a lot of money, and let's face it, a game like this will just be much less popular with the general gaming audience than a game where you play the good guys.

(Although things are obviously never totally black and white, overall I think it's a fair generalisation to make that in WWII the Germans were the "evil" side and the Allies were the good ones. As for Russia, well in CoD you kind of see how that can work: They are displayed in such a fashion that they are clearly not the good guys, but at least you are fighting someone at least as evil, plus you're fighting in a defensive war at that point.)

Second, even in principle I can't see such a game working very well.  I think one motivation of playing a (single player) FPS is to have something to root for. Playing the evil side can work, but more in a fictional over-the-top setting (Star Wars for instance).

As for FPS as a platform for artsy, reflective, subtle games... really? A FPS is about killing things, after all. Not to say all FPS have to be outright stupid (think Deus Ex), but how would such a FPS about the Wehrmacht even look like? Missions where you kill hundreds of people, then cut scenes that show you the cruelty of war / the nazis? Missions where you try *not* to kill people?

But yeah, if you're able to actually integrate the part about the "guilt" of the average wehrmacht soldier, about how much they knew, about how they were in conflict and whatnot, MAYBE, just maybe you might be able to create a "tasteful" and good game, maybe something that even educates people.

In a FPS game? Any game like this, I'm pretty sure, wouldn't be fun to play at all.

Really, the only way I can see a game that involves fighting for the Wehrmacht happening is one where you end up not fighting for the Wehrmacht after all. E.g. one where you start fighting for them, but then desert/ join some resistance group or whatever, or an alternate history one where you end up assassinating Hitler/ fighting the Nazi machinery from within...

That, actually, could be a pretty cool game, even educative (slowly seeing through the propaganda and stuff).


Edit: Jnecros, like I said I think it's a pretty fair judgement to make that overall, the Germans *were* the evil side. Facism, holocaust, overthrowing democracy and murdering its proponents and intellectuals, and an expansionist aggressive all-out-war... no, I don't think you can attribute something similar to say the British, French or Americans (in that period of time). That doesn't mean you cannot and shouldn't learn lessons about things being not totally black and white, about the other factions doing evil things as well, or learn about not all or even most Germans being simply inherently "evil", but still.

(I'm German myself btw)

[de5me7]

i await a 19410 winter war shooter

Finnish vs Russians

because this part of the war was thought in deep snow, the game could be combined with a ski simulator

also you would avoid contentious issues with the nazis

the finnish started allies and then switched to axis the russians did the opposite.

[codezero]

To make a game that fits your criteria it would have to have a lot of scope, so you could switch between the frontline to u-boats to the luftwaffe to concentration camps, or something specific that only works with germans like the previous post examples. Otherwise you just get battlefield or silent hunter, and none of the moral dilema you seem to be seeking. You're just a soldier in a certain regalia.

So imo the only game that fits your criteria would have to include the possibility of being transferred to the camps, which wouldn't go down too well with germans or jews, and I doubt it would get past the ratings board, as it would have to include the possibility of killing/gassing/experimentingon civilians in the name of racism.

I think it would be fun/insightful if done right, with a charismatic hitler and a back story you can get into, so that the people that get right into the story would request a transfer to the camps and the people who are disgusted by it desert/sabotage/spyon the german forces. It would definately capture the grit of war and would only really succeed as a playable history. If the nazis are definately going to lose anyway you could play it straight and still come out a hero at the end(if you survive), or be evil and be convicted of war crimes.

The same could be done with vietnam or iraq I suppose, or any side with an excessive toll on civilian life in the name of racism. Fancy a transfer to guantanomo? Will you load up the carpet bombs after seeing your comrades (in the non-polical sense) slaughtered in the jungle?

[Cthulhu]

One thing no one seems to have mentioned is that the game would have a much lower audience.  The game almost assuredly would not be sold in Germany at all, and that's a good sized part of your market, and by extension, part of your profit margin.

[gamefreak1]

Well in silent hunter 3 (you play a u-boat) you aren't exactly innocent you are ordered to sink civilian ships pretty much condemning them to death.