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[Aqizzar]

I've seen this come up elsewhere, and the more I think about it, the more it interests me.

So, the world of First-Person Shooters is and has always been clogged with games based on being a soldier of some sort in World War 2.  Virtually always American, and sometimes Brits or Russians.  Namely, the Allies (sans the French for some reason).  But what about the other side?  Why have I never seen an FPS where you're a Nazi?  I'm not counting games like 1942 and Day of Defeat and such, where someone has to be the Nazis.  I mean, why not a single player game focused on being a soldier of the Wehrmacht?

Oh sure, there's all the obvious reasons, being Nazis and all.  But in a world where Postal and Grand Theft Auto exist, surely Nazis can't be that far beyond the pale.  More importantly, there's no reason it can't be done tastefully - go the rout of Das Boot and Stalingrad, ignore all the politicking and context, and just focus on a straight up military story.

I think it's a discredit to the foundation of the genre that the whole other side of history gets thrown under the bus like inhuman monsters.  It could be a great game, and be a great insight into what it's like to be on the losing team.

Forgot to ask: Anybody know of such a game?  Not counting grotesque mods?

[Puck]

The whole genocide thing is kind of a bummer.

The real answer to your question, however, is probably: publishers fear they'll lose money.

[Deon]

Yeah, the main reason is this "rating" stuff etc. You know, even swastika is forbidden in some games/on some forums, although it's not necessary a nazi symbol.

[Aqizzar]

If simply having nazi regalia in a game effected the rating, then there wouldn't be any WW2 FPS now would there?

[Deon]

Not simply. It's all about protogonist/antagonist thing. Why don't we play as a zombie against survivors or as a monster against heroes? True, there're such games, but there're THOUSAND more of "hero vs. villains" thing. Just a type of a common "meme".

[Kagus]

I'd like to state that Dungeon Keeper and Stubbs the Zombie are both awesome games.  Quantity does not necessarily mean quality.

As far as the "Nazi - Postal dude/Tommy Vercetti" correlation, you have to recognize some of the differences...

Both PD and TV are individuals who, of their own volition, decide to liberate the world of several metric tonnes of fat moronic tourists.  Often by blowing them up.

The National Socialist party, on the other hand, oppressed, ostracized, imprisoned and slaughtered innumerable innocents as inhuman scum, due to their unfortunate heritage.


Postal Dude, as he himself has been heard to say, holds no prejudice.  He kills everyone equally.  His rampages are caused by annoying, stupid people who really just don't need to suck his air anymore.

Tommy Vercetti is not so much malicious as he is acutely myopic.  He really just thinks those things are all speedbumps.

In both Postal and GTA, you decide whether or not to kill someone based on how much of an asshole they're being, or how much money they're carrying, or how much blood you think will fly out of them if you hit them with that new SYV you stole.  The genocide of Nazi Germany was based around viewing entire groups of people as subhuman animals, that needed to be killed in order to remove their taint from the world.


So while Postal and GTA both encourage independent, entrepreneurial behaviour, a game taken from a Nazi viewpoint would exhibit bigotry.


End comment:  Racism is wrong, running over hookers is good business sense.

[Aqizzar]

Like I said, there's no reason you can't do it tastefully.  I'm not talking about Concentration Camp Tycoon or anything.  Soldiers are soldiers, and there's great war stories to be told/played.  Just set the whole thing in Russia.

[Strife26]

Because we like comfort.

Major spoilers for various games ahead.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Take CoD 5. I KNOW how the game ends. I WILL win it. No matter how many times I die, Good ol' USA will win the bloody war. No matter if Sgt whats-his-name gets impaled in the second mission (I've only played it briefly, I'll be buying it soonish so that I can get emotionally attached instead of playing it with no voice). His sacrifice will be succesful. We win.
Cod 4, it sucks that Peter Jackson gets his nuked, but, you still get to kill the fucking bastards who're responsible (or watch the good captain do it, which suddenly occurs to me as being an AWESOME avatar clip if I could get).

In almost all FPSes, there is the warm comfort in the fact that the outcome is predetermined. Your side will win. It might be a costly win, but your side will win. Heck, even if Master Chief dies, humanity still wins the war!


We don't get that with a Nazi Germany soldier. We get the opposite. We get the hopeless war feeling. No matter how good you do, you WILL lose. You could get around this with a cop out strategy of betraying the Fatherland, or an alternate history.



The second problem would be the fact that you have to shoot someone. Have you ever looked at the hostiles in a FPS? They're either purposely evil looking (why does every other guy in Modern Warfare need a gas mask?) sterotypes of the enemy (why did everyone in Turning point have a nazi armband), or imposible to tell (Covered with leaves in Cod5, or with a full helmet in Killzone see the overlord list for more). What are you going to do with Pvt GI? You make Jonny Freedom, US Army into a bad guy, and my nationalism WILL act up, and I will call Holy Hell on top of your poor gaming studio.


I had a third point, but be blown if I could remember it. 

[Sensei]

Cliche or trope would be more accurate.

Anyway, it's come across my mind too. Sure, I bet some people would find it insulting, but I'm sure you could do it without being distasteful. Even if it's not just a straight up military story, it's not like being a Nazi soldier means you're fond of the Nazi party. Hell, I'd like to see something like in CoD where you switch between characters (except they aren't all cliches... for once? Maybe?) and eventually have a showdown between characters you've been playing the whole time. Maybe you play whoever wins, and that determines the rest of the story. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that would have to be a sad story. About a war. Boo hoo. Why do no video games have tragedy nowadays? Y'know, I just need to play System Shock... where can I get my hands on it...

That said, I simply can't imagine it being received well unless a movie did it first. IE, a movie within the last few years. They have more leverage with the 'its artistic' excuse. If a video game did it, it would be 'Video games teach your children to be Nazis! Tonight at nine, on Fox News.'

[Duke 2.0]

 Lessons I shall apply liberally in college.

 Although I'm sure a game based around the more distant campaigns could work. It could start with badasses like Erwin Rommel, who would be a suitable middle ground for such a genre to come out through. Just a story of soldiers doing the best they can for their country. Not necessarily agreeing with what their country is doing, or even aware of it.

[Sensei]

Sorry for DP, I'm tired and slow right now, the three posts above mine ninja'd me.

Anyway, like I was saying... I think as a story, it's feasible to do a storyline about how you were conscripted, forced to fight on the frontlines, even though you questioned (or were outright lied to) about the Nazis' motives. And what would that character (you) think? What would his (your) friends think? It would be reasonable to give a voice to why people did what they did, rather than "they are bad guys". Oh, and then they all die in the end.

Moral of the story: Being a Nazi sucks.

Anyway, what was the name of that psychological study where people were ordered to shock a person (actor, they fake it of course)? They're told, of course, that the experiment is on the actor. Anyway, they found that 80% or something of people kept shocking them, even after the actor said they wanted to leave the experiment, just because a guy in a white coat told them to do it.

[Wooty]

It pretty much boils down to the missions. Any differences in weapons are more or less irrelevant because you'll be picking up whatever you want from dead nazis anyway, and tanks and aircraft will always be exactly as effective as the script requires. Players like missions where they gain ground and win the war, and unless the game is about the earliest years of the war then Germany will be defending or retreating the entire game. Imagine D-day as the Germans, it would be a 25 minute long "machine gun the running dudes until they fall over" minigame that we're all sick of.


Ninjad: I think every one of us would love to play Concentration Camp Tycoon. Admit it. For the same reason you built prison islands in Rollercoaster Tycoon and drowned little children.

[Aqizzar]

As I envisaged it, there's no reason you have to die in the end.  Lose yes, but not that tragic.  In Three Acts-

Tutorial - The Greek Campaign, saving incompetent Italian soldiers from equally incompetent Greeks.

Act 1 - The Invasion of Russia, lots of big easy slap downs that get increasingly harder the farther you go.

Act 2 - Stalingrad, two years of frozen Hell, with gritty streetfighting and improvisation.

Act 3 - The Retreat, the whole Wehrmacht rushing back to Germany as fast as you can, being harried by partisans and advance units, and selling your lives against the Red Army juggernaut for a few more days or hours.

Grand Finale - The Battle of Berlin, minute to minute fight for survival as you and your cobbled together unit keep running West to find some Anglophones to surrender to before the Russians butcher you.

Ninjad: I think every one of us would love to play Concentration Camp Tycoon. Admit it. For the same reason you built prison islands in Rollercoaster Tycoon and drowned little children.

We do play Dwarf Fortress after all.

[Duke 2.0]

 No love for the African desert campaigns?

[Aqizzar]

It wasn't very long (though still interesting).  And it's easier to sell Russians and Ukrainians as enemies than Brits, Americans, and Israelis.