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Author Topic: Mechanical "batteries."  (Read 2573 times)

Bricks

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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2009, 10:23:49 am »

I like your selling technique of introducing a totally unlikely sci-fi setting for DF, and then simply proposing mechanical storage of energy.  :)

It does sound like a cool, dwarfy way to deal with the long haul.  I don't think humans or elves would be interested in the springs, though, as they sound dangerous and relatively advanced.

Assuming sieges ever reach a scale where you are trapped inside your little fort, unable to actually sustain yourself indefinitely, the springs could be a good backup plan.

Also, jack-in-the-box style spike traps?
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G-Flex

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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2009, 10:52:13 am »

Mechanical energy storage?

Flywheels. Even NASA is having some good results with them. Just requires some fancy lubrication, some high quality polished metal parts for all contacting parts, and something to spin it up.

Flywheels are so far beyond the technology level of DF it's just not funny. You need extremely good precision manufacturing to make that sort of thing, and even THEN they're iffy and dangerous.

And as far as springs go, with the danger involved in carrying around extremely high-energy-capacity springs, and the effort involved as well, you might as well just have dwarves spend the 30 seconds winding the thing themselves on-site.
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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2009, 01:46:36 pm »

Mechanical energy storage?

Flywheels. Even NASA is having some good results with them. Just requires some fancy lubrication, some high quality polished metal parts for all contacting parts, and something to spin it up.

Flywheels are so far beyond the technology level of DF it's just not funny. You need extremely good precision manufacturing to make that sort of thing, and even THEN they're iffy and dangerous.
Potter's wheel
It is possible, but the use of flywheels to store power didn't start until the industrial revolution.

Also, on the use of springs:
Quote from: Wikipedia
Mainsprings appeared in the first spring powered clocks, in 15th century Europe. Around 1400 coiled springs appeared in locks,[1] and many early clockmakers were also locksmiths. Springs were applied to clocks to make them smaller and more portable than previous weight driven clocks, evolving into the first pocketwatches by 1600.
Technically falls out of period.

Historically, energy storage was achieved by utilizing gravitational potential energy. In short, move big rocks up a hill. They also used pumps to move water into a reservoir, like we can already do in DF.
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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2009, 07:09:25 pm »

The 1400s are the DF time frame.
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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2009, 09:14:42 pm »

I'm pretty sure that makes springs in any use "High tech".
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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2009, 01:04:29 pm »

If you had water sources (power sources) run dry needing either dams or mechanical storage for critical industry I think springs or flywheels would be a intresting addition.

I'v been thinking about building a fort in  a large body of water that needs constant pumping to keep the place from flooding, while hard on the FPS it would make having constant power a must.

I'm sure I'm not the first person to suggest more mechanical industry needing power, or traps and some such.

I would love to see a mountain converted into a massive flywheel. Seems very much like something a dwarf would do.
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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2009, 01:44:24 pm »

I'v been thinking about building a fort in  a large body of water that needs constant pumping to keep the place from flooding, while hard on the FPS it would make having constant power a must.

That would make for some wild reclaim/adventure mode action.  Forget recruiting adventurers, you'd need to hire engineers and laborers.
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LordZorintrhox

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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2009, 01:59:05 pm »

What I think G-Flex means is that an effective power storage flywheel is a little grandiose.  Unless it is perfectly balanced, a medium sized flywheel won't give you much in terms of revolutions.  Since the dwarves would likely use stone to make their flywheels, we're talking something large to do maybe not much at all.

So a potter's wheel would be practical application, when we get pottery.  It'd be like making a mill: you make a stone flywheel at the mason's shop, some kind of bearing at the forge, and need 1 unit of wood to make a pottery workshop.

I digress.  The only other use I think of for a flywheel would be regulating a complex machine's rotation, or keeping something rotating if it has an intermittent power source.  For instance if, say, wind was implemented to be more sporadic so windmills don't generate power all the time, then you could add a LARGE stone flywheel (3x3) to the machinery underneath which would keep it going providing power at a decaying rate until the winds pick up again.  The flywheel would, of course, drain a lot of power from the windmill from a rest state (say, 30 or 40), then draw less and less until it got down to a paltry 1.  Until the power runs out.

You could, of course, prime the flywheel with dwarf power.  For simplicity, if capstans were implemented, building one out of stone could be a flywheel whereas a wooden one could be a capstan and a metal one a winch.  Only the stone one would work as above, the other two could be ratcheted (flywheels can rotate free, capstans and winches only rotate when driven).  Then you have period components that happen to behave in a useful manner.

And crazy little buildings that have four dwarves on then spinning around like mad!

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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2009, 01:19:33 pm »

I'm sorry, it's just not very... realistic. As in, beyond the non-realism that is DF, it just doesn't fit. Mechanical springs that can carry enough power to really do anything short of moving a small watch hand are downright dangerous, and the level of technology required to build a spring that would see use in industry is well beyond the 1400's level we're looking at.

That said, heavy weights on pulley systems, water power via cisterns or rivers, wind power, animal power, and dwarf power are all fairly period correct. Even loaded springs for one time use (think weapon traps that fire only once) would be relatively accurate.
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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2009, 02:03:49 pm »

Too dangerous? Magma.

Not DF realistic? Show me the line between 400 types of rock and dragons where DF realism lies.

Period incorrect? Aluminium in any form (save for the slightly greater deposits of aluminium in certain soils where it was used as a dyeing agent).

Personally, I'm all for springs. They allow even greater complexity and interest in machinery while having a good balancing factor in that they will periodically require maintenance and re-powering. A system of two springs, correctly arranged with appropriate other mechanisms, could provide power for a pressure plate or a great many other things, however, I would also add in that I personally believe that miniature springs are already in use in all mechanisms. I thick industrial mechanisms would be great for those big projects. Screw your one-use earthquake machine, with springs you need never stop!
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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2009, 04:52:28 pm »


Not DF realistic? Show me the line between 400 types of rock and dragons where DF realism lies.

This line of thinking is problematic because it assumes that there is only one kind of "realistic". There's "realism" in the "matches our world exactly" sense, and "realism" in the "world is self-consistent and reasonable" sense. Flywheels are unrealistic in both senses; the real world didn't have them back then, and it would be inconsistent within the game world because making good and useful energy-store flywheels requires the kind of engineering and manufacturing capabilities that dwarves obviously just don't have, or else they'd also be building a hell of a lot of other stuff they don't; it would make their tech level inconsistent and weird.

Quote
Period incorrect? Aluminium in any form (save for the slightly greater deposits of aluminium in certain soils where it was used as a dyeing agent).

Aluminum was known before it could be extracted from ore. Native aluminum is just exceedingly rare. It's arguably rare enough that it's hardly worth representing in game, but then again, it's certainly fun to come across, and things that aren't common should still BE there.
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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2009, 05:24:47 pm »

A gauntlet attached to a spring would make a pretty hilarious trap.
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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2009, 07:34:26 pm »

Considering the stereotype that is likely followed that dwarces are exceptionally good stoneworkers, they SHOULD be able to make a passable flywheel.

All it takes is some semi-intelligent dwarf noticing that a rolling stone continues up the other side, and other stuff like those COMPLEX MECHANICS LIKE GEARS, SHAFTS, AND WATER WHEELS AT A LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY NOT EVER ACHIEVED IN REAL LIFE takes a moment to stop...


Also, steel?

HFS-METAL?


What about the fact that DF is still in ALPHA, and that means that they could have plans to add tech up to intergalactic hyperdrive and they JUST HAVEN'T GOT THERE YET, choosing to develop base tech and the game's engine first.

Plus, who says that YOUR view of the dwarf tech is the CORRECT VIEW?
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LegoLord

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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2009, 07:56:26 pm »

Toady One.  I believe he wants 1400s themed tech.

And yes, native aluminum is real.  I believe it occurs on rare occasions when aluminum (in time when layers formed) cooled into a solid before reacting (this may not be the most accurate explanation).  So it has a thin coating of "tarnish" that basically  gives it the reactivity of a noble metal, like gold or silver.
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Re: Mechanical "batteries."
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2009, 08:26:01 pm »

Too dangerous? Magma.

Not DF realistic? Show me the line between 400 types of rock and dragons where DF realism lies.

Period incorrect? Aluminium in any form (save for the slightly greater deposits of aluminium in certain soils where it was used as a dyeing agent).
What makes it so that because the game a number of seperate items that are unrealistic, that the game should be stuffed full of a ton of silly things that have ALL of those unrealistic charactistics?

Personally I think spring are a bad idea in many aspects. In fact, im suprised to see this topic is still alive, and that apparentelly most of you are quite far behind on your history, simple mechanical physics and common sense.

First, any spring that can store a significant amouth of energy needs to be made out of steel. In the 1400s steel was expensive, and the process of forging a single piece steel in the shape of a huge spring was, I am quite certain, not known.

Second, if somehow a dwarf fell-mooded all over half the forts supply of steel and produced a huge steel spring, the thing would be completelly useless. Probably you have to drag the thing around with mules, to huge installations that would be required to wind the thing, all to provide your millstone with 2 seconds of power. Just get a quern, or just use mules to power the damn millstone.

Though on another note, the idea about the flywheel seems better at first, but still somewhat unrealistic. I cant imagine a massive stone flywheel being usefull for anything. Wooden axles, cogwheels, millstones and pumps all produce a lot of friction. I cant see how dwarves would be able to suspend a flywheel large enough to power those for more then a minute.
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