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[Brog]

Is there any real reason to make a distinction between constructions and natural features / carved features?
It would seem to me to be a lot simpler to just let these be the same thing.  The interface would be less cluttered (the distinction between "dig" and "remove construction" really has to go) and it would avoid a lot of problems.

[Mechanoid]

A distinction is made between constructs and natural features for the same reason why there's a distinction between digging a wall and digging a floor.

It's all a way to stop the inevitable phrase
"OH SHIT NO! NOT THAT! DONT DO THAT!!! FUCK NOOOOOOO!"
from occuring one too many times.

[mickel]

I also imagine it's because there's a distinct difference between the two in real life. A rock wall as in a wall carved out of rock is stronger than one that's made out of rocks that have been cut away and then put back together again with mortar.

If you ram the latter hard enough it will lose structural integrity and tumble into a heap. It would theoretically happen with the former too, but it'd require a much bigger ram.

Once material strengths and goblin sappers come into play, it will probably make a difference.

[Gehn]

I do wish that if you had a soil material (like blocks of peat or sand) you could rebuild it as actual ground, rather than as a construction. As it stands, if there's a hole in the top layer of ground there will never be grass there.

It makes sense to not be able to put rock back together the way you found it, but it is easy to do this with softer materials like clay, peat and sand. You can't get those materials outside of block form through trading (so far as I know) but even when you acquire them this way, they just make a normal construction that won't grow crops, grass, shrubs or trees. It doesn't seem right to have sand (even blocks thereof) acting like a rock floor would.

[ November 16, 2007: Message edited by: Gehn ]

[axus]

Construction handling requires masonry, destruction requires no skill, while mining requires mining.  I think the whole soil/clay handling thing is going to require a digging skill and use a shovel!  I think the game seems more fun without having to worry about disposing of all the leftover dirt, but it seems we'll need to have some fun way of generating dirt to do all the dirty deeds we want done.

[Brog]

Obviously there's a real-life difference, but there's no important game-mechanical difference.  Nothing that's worth the added interface clutter and newbie-unfriendliness.  Sure, you can't engrave constructed walls, but everyone wants to and it's probably going to end up being allowed eventually anyway.

I know DF defaults to "yes" for any question about added complexity, but, for me at least, this distinction adds absolutely nothing in terms of gameplay.  And as a programmer, I expect removing it would be simpler internally as well.

[0x517A5D]

I haven't got nearly far enough to test it, but I rather suspect that trolls can smash down constructions like they can other buildings.

0x517A5D

[Brog]

Hmm.  That's a good point.
Maybe when DF uses 3d graphics and pixel shader 4.0 and hdr lighting it will be visually obvious what to expect from different types of wall.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Keep them buildings all you like, but have them behave the same as normal walls when it comes to interface interactions. A "constructed stone" wall can be carefully disassembled, but it can just as well be mined. And engraved.

[Singularity]

One of the reasons I would want to keep the distinction is because "mining" a wooden, metal, or glass wall simply doesn't make any sense.  I also don't see how one would engrave wooden or metal walls either.  In any case, for now having a couple extra menu options shouldn't be a big deal.  An option to toggle off the flashing C's on constructions would be nice, however.

[Quintin Stone]

Engraving the wooden stocks and the metal surfaces of firearms is a centuries-old tradition.  I can't see why engraving wooden or metal walls would be so strange.

[Red Jackard]

quote:Originally posted by Sean Mirrsen:
<STRONG>Keep them buildings all you like, but have them behave the same as normal walls when it comes to interface interactions. A "constructed stone" wall can be carefully disassembled, but it can just as well be mined. And engraved.</STRONG>

This sounds good to me.

[Sean Mirrsen]

You won't mine iron walls. The miner will simply tell you: "cancels mining: material too hard", especially if you're doing it with a copper pick. You can "mine" glass walls, destroying them, possibly leaving raw glass. "Mining" wood walls will also destroy them.

[Align]

But engraving should be logical and good, right?

[Olix]

quote:Originally posted by Quintin Stone:
<STRONG>Engraving the wooden stocks and the metal surfaces of firearms is a centuries-old tradition.  I can't see why engraving wooden or metal walls would be so strange.</STRONG>

Wouldn't it be a different skill set? I'm sure that engraving something in stone is totally different from carving it into wood, a etching it into metal. Maybe they could share the stone/wood/metal crafter skills.