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Author Topic: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams  (Read 5796 times)

Granite26

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2009, 02:35:58 pm »

 lucusLoC:  I know you're on a mobile phone, but he did provide a link.

Here it is plain:

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=38195.0



Mephansteras

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2009, 02:44:04 pm »

Actually if "build Beam-Wall" automatically generated a "cut beam" job if there where no beams, I'd be ok with them. Same thing for rock blocks would be nice too... :)

As a general concept I think this is how the game should be run as the game gets more complicated. Having the job manager automatically spawn the necessary tasks to accomplish what the player wants to do gives us realism (multi-step processes, realistic materials, etc) while still keeping the micromanagement down to a manageable level.
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lucusLoC

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2009, 03:28:29 pm »

Thanks granite, i cant even see that ther is supposed to be alink.
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BlckKnght

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2009, 07:20:46 pm »

I see your point about hauling and in that reguard it does affect how many items a job should produce, but it has little effect on any discussion about volume.
Well, the number of units for construction must go up if there is to be greater diversity in construction materials.  Right now, to build a wall you need one stone, one log or one block.

If instead the wall required several units of material it would be easy to require several different types (like bricks and mortar or beams and boards).  The size of the items (and the wall) is not really that important, since production and use can be scaled up together (e.g. mining would produce up to three stones per square dug, but wall building would require three items worth of stone).

To take it to the logical extreme, I think it would neat to model each individual brick or stone in a wall (which could number in the hundreds).  This would allow interesting things like using a single brick as an improvised weapon. However, unless hauling, production and construction are dramatically overhauled to deal with the large numbers of items this would imply there will need to be at least a bit of abstraction.  That's why, in my original example, I said you would need several "pallets" of bricks, each of which would be treated as a single unit.  By using a somewhat vague unit size Toady would also be able to put off the volume question more easily (there would be no need to say how many bricks are in a pallet, or exactly what the dimensions of a beam are).

I think that the hauling improvements will still need to get done before any construction material diversity is implemented. Even multiplying the number of hauling jobs by a relatively small number like 3 or 4 would badly slow down the progress of any large construction project.
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lucusLoC

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2009, 07:37:02 pm »

Agreed. I think we are on exactly the same page :-)
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irmo

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2009, 08:35:19 pm »

Toady has recently said that he is "quite comfortable" with not defining the exact dimensions of a square. So conservation of matter is not a necessity. A tree will, in the future, be more than one square high, of course.

Why should it? Why don't we just assume the squares containing trees are taller than the ones not containing trees?
</sarcasm>

Regardless of the exact dimensions of a square, we can reasonably assume that they're all the same size. A tree that fit into one square shouldn't turn into enough wood to build walls into multiple squares.
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Derakon

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2009, 10:27:13 pm »

No, we can't reasonably assume they're all the same size. Otherwise, why does one dwarf have to lie down when two are in the same square, when the square next door can comfortably contain a Bronze Colossus?

Squares are fungible. Nuff said.
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 11:22:06 am »

With the new multi-tile trees soon to be implemented I got to thinking about how the woodworking industry might need to be reworked for this, and this was the most recent topic sharing some of my sentiments on the issue. Basically, I think it'll be required to expand on the wood materials we get from the woodworking industry.

Considering we'll now be cutting down multi-tile trees complete with roots, branches, leaves and a thick trunk possibly being multiple tiles in thickness as well depending on the tree, getting the same standardized logs from each different part of the tree wouldn't make much sense. At the very least I say firewood should be added as an abstraction of all the pieces of wood and branches too small for use in carpentry apart from decoration and detailing, primarily being used for charcoal and ash production as well as ofc being used as simple firewood whenever we get more uses for fire. Leaves being added as a material is mandatory for animal fodder (which also brings up prospect of pollarding as a new work order), which Toady has talked about in the past. Maybe now we'd be able to keep those elephants and other large animals alive. It's also about time to change wooden blocks into wooden boards, sort of mirroring stone blocks in that you get several of them from a log and saving resources compared to crafting something straight from a log.

As for beams, I'm a bit unsure as to if it's worth the effort of implementing at this time. When cave-ins gets reworked again and we need supports for mining as well as proper supporting features while constructing buildings or towers, not to mention for ships they'll have a much bigger use than now when there's frankly not much they'd be needed for with the current systems. I'd really like to see it added at some point in development as a requirement for not just the previously mentioned but also drawbridges, siege equipment and any other constructions that'd need more robust wooden material.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2012, 02:53:35 pm »

Could lots of firewood be used to substitute or be turned into fuel?
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2012, 02:59:49 pm »

Could lots of firewood be used to substitute or be turned into fuel?

Like I said in the middle of the post ish, firewoods main use would be for charcoal production for the time being. As far as I know one of the reasons for using charcoal over just wood is that it burns much hotter, which is necessary for smelting and metalcrafting, where the heat from just burning wood simply isn't enough.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2012, 03:22:36 pm »

Could lots of firewood be used to substitute or be turned into fuel?

Like I said in the middle of the post ish, firewoods main use would be for charcoal production for the time being. As far as I know one of the reasons for using charcoal over just wood is that it burns much hotter, which is necessary for smelting and metalcrafting, where the heat from just burning wood simply isn't enough.

I thought it said it would be mostly used for low-temperature work.
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2012, 03:43:16 pm »

Maybe I phrased myself oddly, but what I meant was the firewood as is would be used for low-temperature work as you put it ^^
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 04:14:44 pm »

Would it be possible, IRL, to use a bunch of firewood like that to make a sufficiently hot fire for forging or turn it into charcoal?
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2012, 04:29:47 pm »

Would it be possible, IRL, to use a bunch of firewood like that to make a sufficiently hot fire for forging or turn it into charcoal?

I'm not 100% sure this is the fact (which I apparently failed to note despite my intention), but I think I've heard that's the case anyhow. Might just be that it's much harder to reach a high enough temperature and requires more fuel or something, if anyone knows for certain feel free to chip in, some quick googling didn't help :>
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Mephansteras

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Re: Expanded wood materials: Logs, firewood, boards and beams
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2012, 04:40:23 pm »

Charcoal was used for metalsmithing. As far as I'm aware, wood itself doesn't get hot enough. Well, not enough to create steel anyway. Gold, Silver, and Copper all have low enough melting points that they could be worked with just wood fires, or just banging on them a lot, for that matter. Copper ore will even melt in a camp fire if it gets hot enough.

Been awhile since I did all the research for the Ironworks mod, but I do remember that your options were Crucible smelting or using Charcoal until the Blast Furnace came along.
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