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[Shakma]

If it was in, I'd like it not to be overly controllable.  Something like how moods are.  You can shift your odds by doing things like training unskilled dwarfs as dabbling weaponsmiths and putting a good metal next to a forge but you don't have full control.

Maybe a wizard or priest is a noble that gets magic moods from time to time.  You can influence the result by keeping him happy or sad or by putting various items close at hand.  Foul mood and charcoal nearby is not pretty for the booze stockpile.  Esctatic with silk and it's raining dresses.  His favorite pet dies and you get a zombie kitten. 

[Raithah]

Now I'm not entirely certain about post etiquette on this forum, so please excuse me if this is inappropriate, but I've this idea on how to implement magic in DF. It's just a little bit long, so each section is contained within a spoiler tag, along with a general tl;dr in case, it's, y'know, too long. It's a little sparse, though, so if you have a half hour to spare the text might be a little more filling .

Overview

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Magic, in Dwarf Fortress, would be derived from three separate sources or ‘trees’, if you will: the ground, the heavens and the earth; each of which has its own spells and specifics to be detailed later in this text. Each source contains energy that is harnessed by any given spell, however; the amount of energy contained within an arbitrary location will be different than any other based on the source (ie. Ground tends to accumulate its energy around mountains, veins of certain rocks, etc.). This energy cannot be created and exists in a finite quantity, but as will be described later, this is more of a hurdle to be overcome than an absolute limitation. Concentration of energy correlates directly to the potency of any spell cast, so magical energy becomes a resource and not an exploitable, one-trick-pony game mechanic.

Energy

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At world generation, all energy would be spread evenly across the map. Features, such as rivers, forests, mountain ranges, HFS, roads or even civilizations, attract energy in proportion to their sizes – a mountain range, for example, would accumulate more Ground energy than a volcanic island. Cultures then adapt their magical systems to the energy most concentrated in their location; in general, Dwarves would be exposed to Ground, Elves to Earth, and Goblins to Heavens (it makes more sense as you read on), but changes in leadership, or landscape, or interactions with other civilizations could influence magical development profoundly – it would be entirely possible, if unlikely, for Dwarves to become able with Earthern magic. None of this is to say that the player cannot override their given culture’s experience, however; it will simply be more difficult to progress (as will be described later ).

Every source affects a different aspect of the DF universe: Ground, representing the elemental forces of nature, would affect nearly everything not built or influenced by the various cultures; weather, water, temperature. Excluded would be plant life, which, along with every other form of life sentient or not, is represented by Earth. This field would concentrate on healing and growing, as such, it accumulates strongly around areas of activity (ie. Fortresses) or forests, being less attracted to the barren wastes of high peaks or deserts.

Rounding out the trio is the Heavens, which deals with the supernatural – in other words, the traditional magic of D&D lore (also my least favorite for its clichéd nature |: ). Miracles, unexplained phenomena; nearly everything beyond reasoning by the scientific mind, would exist in this category. In a ‘high magic’ Dwarf Fortress universe, this field would be that which makes possible fire balls or Kamehameha waves, be it as it may. The ‘low magic’ alternative, again, my preference; would be centered on stat increases, enemy AI pathfinding (for instance, to influence your foes to walk through that line of cage traps) or occurrences that rely on the random number generator, such as quality modifiers. It would be concentrated near areas of spiritual interest, in general, tall mountains (reaching for the heavens) or HFS.

Runes and Totems

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

First off, it’s my opinion that magic shouldn’t be involved too greatly in direct combat – if this doesn’t vibe with you, please skip this section and comment only on the above :3. That being said, it is my opinion that magic should be used as a strategic aid to tilt the odds in the defender’s favour, not to rain missiles at one’s foes. This system would be divided into two groups: runes and totems, which use and direct magical energy, respectively.

As stated in the last section, there is only a finite amount of energy in any given area. Runes, in using this energy, would create a ‘well’ of lowered magic concentration surrounding them, representing the drain they cause. This is wholly temporary, however; as removing the rune will restore all energy to its prior concentration. The drain any given rune creates is based on two factors, its quality and the strength of the spell, that is to say, a masterpiece rune is more efficient than a well made rune and can get more oomph out of less energy. If a rune is unable to satisfy its energy requirements, it will expand the well up to a predefined limit, at which point should the necessary power be unavailable to it, an error will be thrown and the rune will not be activated.

The runes themselves are manufactured in one of two ways: they are either manufactured at a relevant workshop, or inscribed directly onto the tile in question, for those who lack sites with plentiful rock. The workshop, which will remain unnamed because of my lack of creativity (WIP Name: Rune-shop), processes stone, metal or glass blocks into runic tablets which are then placed as a uilt loor by anyone with the furniture labour. The rune carving profession, which will also remain unnamed due to similar circumstances (WIP Name: Rune-er), is sub-divided into the three sources listed above, with every successive level (ie. Dabbling, Legendary, etc.) unlocking new runes. A given culture’s favoured source will have more runes available for inscription at lower levels, demonstrating their improved knowledge of the field.

Inscriptions on the ground, separate from tiles, are slightly different. For one, they can only be ‘erased’, and not deconstructed, in addition to only being able to be inscribed by someone with the rune carving profession enabled (as opposed to runic tablets, which are placeable as floors by anyone with furniture hauling), in addition to taking slightly longer to create than in a workshop. Inscription decay, which also affects tablets, is more likely to destroy directly inscribed runes as they will often be made on lesser quality materials – for instance, and inscription directly on sand will wear faster than a tablet of adamantium, or steel. Wear is represented by a reduction in quality; when a given rune becomes sub-par it will cease functioning altogether. It may be combated by reinscription, be it on tablets or soil.

Totems are the dwarven solution to energy concentration, theoretically; every other culture would have their own means of controlling it. Like runes, place a drain on available energy, however; instead of expending it on an ability, they redirect and concentrate it either in a compass direction or relative sides. For instance, if there is insufficient energy within a fortress, one may surround it with energy concentrating totems that pull energy from the wilderness to the indoors. Should there be a particularly powerful source of energy one one’s map which is too far to reach, a network of totems set to a compass direction (ie. A straight line vs. one side) could move energy from the source to somewhere useful. As a point of interest, a totem’s well is larger than a rune’s; placing one beside a particularly powerful inscription concentrates more energy than that rune could attain alone, potentially allowing for more powerful magics.

tl;dr

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Energy System

• Two-dimensional, concentration at an arbitrary point will be equal to concentration at any other.
• Created and distributed at world gen.
• Divided into three sections, Earth, Ground and Heavens.
• Influenced by map features and inhabitants.
• Finite, but inextinguishable.

Runes and Totems

• Both have quality modifiers.
• Both have strength modifiers.
• Each source has its own ‘field’, with proficiency opening up new runes.
• Runes use up energy, while totems distribute them.

Edit: Major typo corrected.

[Rowanas]

Hmm. I would like that suggestion in there, but not as the sole means of magic use. There should be other types of magic, I think you have too few categories and the levelling thingy should also change. Other than that, this is an excellent start to the magic system.

[Raithah]

Huh, well I'm glad someone even read it . Thank you.

I was having trouble categorizing magic; have any ideas? I was aiming for something general, then making the player customize each spell to their liking (sentences, I think that was suggested earlier). I can't think of anything more elegant than that, but you're not me - what would you suggest?

[redacted123]

-

[Lord Dakoth]

Lots Of Words

Huh. That's interesting. I can see that you spent a lot of time putting that together, and I definitely appreciate that.

But I think that magic should have a more "untamed" feel to it. This is just me, but I think of magic as a hidden reserve of "extra-dimensional" energy. Maybe I didn't understand your post (or didn't read it carefully enough  ) but the whole rune-totem thing seems like "binding" the "magical energy" to one physical place.

I think of magic more as like a hidden reserve of energy, and spellcasters have the ability to tap into this energy and direct its flow. An unexperienced spellcaster might be able to access this energy, but likely won't be able to control it very much, resulting in a massive, chaotic release of a huge amount of energy. Big mess. (For more on how I see magic, see my massive, boring post on page 4.)

As for the system itself, I think that there should be a large amount of randomness, and that magic should be involved in worldgen.

At worldgen, all the sentient species have a chance to start with some arcane knowledge. It would vary from world to world, but would not be completely random.

Elves like living things, so they would have an aversion towards healing magics and the like.

Dwarves are greedy, so they would likely favor magics that could make them even wealthier. Spells that aid in locating and excavating minerals and gems and purifying metals would not be out of the question.

Goblins (from what I can tell) are the most violent of the four races. Their spellbooks would consist of incantations that make warriors stronger, and less easily tired. Maybe even summoning demons to (hopefully) aid them in combat. Hmmm, wouldn't it be pure fun to have a Tentacle Demon be the ruler of a Gobbo civ?

Humans, I don't know. I tend to think that humans would have a "scientific" mindset that would drive them to try out all kinds of magic, and experiment with it as much as they can. (Resulting in large craters on the map  )

There I go, getting off topic again. Well, I think that a wizard/magician/spellweaver/whatever should be a noble position. But unlike other nobles, there would be no way to guarantee that you get a magician. As I said (in my post on page 4,) magicians should be extremely rare. Also, I think that there should be several different types of magic users, each specializing in a certain type of magic.

I think that magic users should not be strictly dwarven. It would be entirely possible to get an Elven spellweaver as an immigrant. Remember, wandering magicians have very few ties to their homelands.

Also, magicians should function mostly independantly. I don't think that there should be any magic-related workshop. Rather, you would designate a study for the wizard, and he would move in and spend lots of time contemplating magic in his own way.

Magic could be passed on between races, though. A goblin warlock might decide that he is being mistreated, stick up his middle finger at the rest of his race, and go to live with another civilization, taking his arcane knowledge with him. Likewise, two races that are extremely friendly might decide to share magical research.

Magic-related nobles would make frequent personal demands, but no mandates. A magic user would be too caught up in his studies to care what the rest of the fort is doing. Keep him happy, or he might just pack up and leave!

Occasionally, he would enchant items, but with subtle effects. As was mentioned in a previous post, I believe by LordZorintrhox, you shouldn't be able to even see the effects of the vast majority of enchanted items. And at all you people who are saying that DF shouldn't have enchanted items, remember that there IS a designation for magical items in the game. So I believe that Toady plans to incorporate magic eventually.

Certain things would attract magic users. Lots of plant and animal life would lure a healer, volcanoes and eerie glowing pits would attract the more power-hungry warlocks, et cetera.

Whoooh, that was a large post. I guess I am very long winded when it comes to these game development things.

[Gergination]

I think that it should have a couple of elements to it

1.  Unstable/Wild (at least for some things)
2.  Different ways to access it (runes, more traditional spells, enchanted weapons, etc)
3.  Spectacular results but with considerable costs or buildup

I love the idea that each world you generate has different systems of magic but I can see a system like that taking considerably longer to implement. 

The main thing is magic should try and supplement existing mechanics rather than trying to just replace them with itself.  I see nothing wrong with dwarven mages using fireballs as long as it doesn't make more traditional combat obsolete.

[Raithah]

Lots Of Words

But I think that magic should have a more "untamed" feel to it. This is just me, but I think of magic as a hidden reserve of "extra-dimensional" energy. Maybe I didn't understand your post (or didn't read it carefully enough  ) but the whole rune-totem thing seems like "binding" the "magical energy" to one physical place.

I wasn't expecting anyone to read it, let alone understand it, so the very fact that people are posting is reviving my hope in humanity . In regards to magic being an untamed force, though; I must differ. Dwarves seem like intensely logical creatures (so far as manically depressed, alcoholic and often suicidal may be considered logical), and the prospect of their messing with a force wholly beyond their comprehension seems a little out of character.

There is some middle ground, though. Runes and totems are kinda like ... pumps and waterwheels, so to speak - Dwarven magicians taking their technical, cultural knowledge and applying it to another field entirely seems like something they'd do. I dunno, it's just a feeling . The middle ground I speak of comes in through a little piece of wording, if you don't mind my paraphrasing myself, the whole totem-rune thing would be a dwarven invention. Goblins, being the headstrong little villains they are, would be more likely to run in wands blazing, potentially blowing the enemy up, or potentially themselves. Elves, who knows, maybe they pray at shrubs or something.

The idea is that even the basic controls of magic differ from culture to culture, and though that adds a tonne of difficulty in terms of design, it'd make for some wicked gameplay. Along the lines of what you said about exchanges between civilizations, perhaps Dwarves, being friendlier with humans than nearly anyone else, could learn more chaotic forms of magic. Who knows, but that's what makes the game interesting.

Oh, and this is probably the part you'll hate the most; I've always thought that the magical system should be more pedestrian than otherwise, allowing anyone to pick up a chisel (or wand, be it as it may) and start working - but then again, I'm in favour of very minor magic, such as promoting healing, encouraging rainfall, so my viewpoint is fundamentally different than your own.

[CJ1145]

I think that magic should be more of an untapped well. A mass of energy that until now has been untapped, that is only limited to one's understanding of it. Each race should use it in different ways.

Elves would see it as a lifewell, and use it to create plants, and manipulate and communicate with the forest. They'd have the most effective healing and regenerative magic, and could control plants to do their bidding, but otherwise would have little capability with it.

Humans would be the least magical; they (and anyone with the mundane tag, I think) should fear magic, and banish it. Instead, they would favor technology and the make of one's own hands.

Goblins would have a tribal, shamanistic understanding of magic, capable of bringing vile curses upon their foes, and could summon creatures and demons with its power.

Dwarves would see it as a means of construction and defense. They could use it to reinforce walls and structures, to give blades a sharper edge; handles a better grip. They would use it to further their craft to a hundred times its normal capabilities.

And then, perhaps the Wizards could come in once more as the magical masters of the world, perhaps stationed there by Armok to ensure that there is always chaos and violence in the world. They would be the weavers of the threads; some rumors here, some dark whispers there, all to make sure that the people of the world always hate someone. They would have vast magical potential, with the imagination to use it however they wished, even to blot out the sun; dry up the oceans; race vile, horrid things from slumber to bring final destruction and judgment upon the world. But they won't. They are content with their lot, to be the sowers of chaos and deceit, working in the shadows as the puppet masters of existence.

[Nightwind]

  His favorite pet dies and you get a zombie kitten. 

Quick, somebody check the raws, is a zombie kitten STILL a vermin hunter?

[Bricks]

Raithah, that was a great read.  I don't think I've ever read a model of magic that seemed so physical and visceral.

A word to the naysayers:  If I can't spend my time in adventure mode searching out lost artifacts and secrets of necromancy to the point where I can establish my army of undead abominations secretly unborn in the foulest swamp, where I live in solitude in my tower of obsidian, I will not consider the game complete.  Given enough time, effort, and intelligence, I should be able to be some sort of horrifying magical powerhouse.

Having every race handle magic differently is slick.  I love Raithah's idea of dwarfs pushing around magic like magma.  Elves strike me as being manipulators of both life and death - somehow the near-animal cannibals strike me as necromancer material.  Humans, following some sort of Tolkien trope, are a little too mundane for widespread respect for magic, outside of religion.  Also, court magicians (whether real or impostor) are a must.  I can't say much for the gobbos, as they don't really seem to have a large tradition to draw from.  I imagine they would worship sources of magic instead of using it themselves, perhaps dabbling in the more murderous magics.  No matter what, I don't want magic to be strikingly different between races, as it starts to kill the mod-ability of the game.

While I'm not sure what a presence or absence of magic should DO, I have some ideas.  Some have described magic as a chaotic force - what better way to implement chaos into a simulation than play with the RNG?  Large amounts of chaos could rework probabilities so that trees arbitrarily burst from the ground, or arrows find a way through six layers of armor, or that an entire goblin siege suddenly falls on their noses.  Chaos could also mean increased entropy - a large amount of magic could cause rapid aging and death, or even the reversal of time.  And undetermined magic could act like a bar of unpolarized metal - if you bring it in the presence of a large, specific influence, like the undead or a magic forest, that influence starts to spread.  That way you could end up with regions that are inherently magical, instead of the "good/evil" and "tame/wild" that is slapped on it now.  Perhaps a fortress in an undead zone would have to carefully eliminate the influence of the natural magic from the fortress, so that the miner that accidentally dies in a cave-in doesn't start eating everyone else.

Using Raithah's model (and not to overquote, I'm drawing more from inspiration than what he wrote), magic itself is present like a property of matter - you find it naturally in the ground, in water, in metals and woods.  Some materials or features could have a greater magic modifier - gold and natural springs often are sources or receptacles of magic.  Perhaps most races could practice the imbuing of magic, to levels that don't really approach the wildness and power of artifacts.  For example - would anyone be opposed to water from some temple, blessed by the local priests, to have some sort of benefit associated with the deity?  Imbuing magic is limited, basically passive, requires extensive effort, planning, and consideration.  Even a legendary imbuer couldn't place a spell of immunity on a necklace that would last more than a few hits, but his skill and the quality of the object in question would determine the power of the spell.  Imbuing magic easily spans races and disciplines, too.  A druid, per se, could be an imbuer that places growth-enhancing spells on seeds and saplings, protection against fire on old growth, etc.  A necromancer could enchant a number of corpses with just enough power to jump out at the nearest passerby.  A runecrafter could carve runes onto items that protect the user from magical intervention, or the object from rusting or fracturing rapidly.  It adds and supports with overpowering the systems already in place, and it doesn't make the real magic - the aggressive, explosive, insane kind - commonplace and generic.

Artifacts should be crazy-go-nuts.  More or less, Toady should throw a RNG on his magic system, have it apply a range of effects with varying intensity, and then rely on the player and the dwarfs/whoever to observe and record its properties.  Basically imbued magic, but unlimited and unknown.  Maybe have the effects and name somehow related, so the player has at least some warning that "Jiggledbowels the Thunderpants of Beckoning" should be locked up in a vault instead of equipped on your champion.

Basically (TLDR):
-With enough time and effort, I should be able to start razing villages with my undead monsters in adventure mode
-Races should have magical preferences, perhaps even distinct ethics, but not totally unique, hardcoded powers, so modders can mix and match all they want
-Magic, as a chaotic natural force, should screw with probabilities, physical laws, and time, in ways you can't really predict or fully contain, but sometimes abuse (ie the fountain you thought was healing everyone you brought near it suddenly starts replacing their brains with fluffy wamblers, or the steel battleaxes you so carefully equipped your squad with suddenly turn into dwarven syrup when you forge into the mysteriously named Candy Mountain)
-Natural magic that has certain tendencies or influences should spread to other areas of high magic, and preferably have an ascertainable (though perhaps not obvious or even proportional) source
-The magical properties of an area should be a bane or a boon to a player; something to consider when choosing a site and planning a fort
-"Commonplace" magic, the kind that whole races practice, study, and habitually apply, should be limited to the imbuing of physical objects with small spells, which are modified by the type and quality of object imbued
-Imbuing magic allows a variety of cultural influences and player needs to be addressed without cheapening the really hardcore stuff, which should come from artifacts and environmental magic
-Artifacts should be crazy-go-nuts

[Sizik]

Kame-Amea

Kamehameha.

[Goose in a jar]

How about leylines?

[HammerHand]

-Magic, as a chaotic natural force, should screw with probabilities, physical laws, and time, in ways you can't really predict or fully contain, but sometimes abuse (ie the fountain you thought was healing everyone you brought near it suddenly starts replacing their brains with fluffy wamblers, or the steel battleaxes you so carefully equipped your squad with suddenly turn into dwarven syrup when you forge into the mysteriously named Candy Mountain)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4

[RedWarrior0]

I think magic should be something generally uncontrollable and random, but there could be some things that have varying degrees of influence.

Spoiler: Random natural magic examples (click to show/hide)

Natural magic would be very rare and have myriad effects. A hole in space-time appearing outside your fortress, a dwarf turning into a statue, all the magma turning into obsidian, and bottomless pits appearing where you could clearly see the rock floor the next level down would be some of the effects of this phenomenon

     First, runes and totems would have a mostly reliable effect similar to what Raithah said (great post, by the way). However, due to the uncontrollable nature of magic they could have strange side effects  or sometimes just stop working. they would also be costly to produce for the dwarf, as the tapping of magic invariably causes something to happen.

Spoiler: Rune effect examples (click to show/hide)

Runes would be made to increase harvests, strengthen warriors in battle (painted or whatever on the shield), increase happiness, etc. One example of the strange side effects from these could be, in the case of the harvest increaser, sun berries mysteriously growing in an underground farm plot. The runemaker could be affected in ways such as having his/her nose transplanted to his/her left foot, insanity, over-exertion, or giving attribute boosts.

     Next, there would be "spellcasters".  Most of the time they would be in their study doing research on magic, but every now and then they would attempt to use a spell intended for the well-being of the fortress, but with varying consequences and side effects. These would be rare enough to warrant an announcement similar to HFS discovery.

Spoiler: Spellcaster spell examples (click to show/hide)

If a spellcaster decides to cas a spell, it would tell you the intended effect. Examples could be trying to turn a log into a stack of 500 logs or something like that, a very nice effect in a desert. Problems could occur when the spellcaster instead turns it into 500 stacks of individual logs, each with its own tile. Maybe a food multiplication spell could end up rotting all the food. Faliures and unintended effects could always occur.

Spoiler: Spellcaster types (click to show/hide)

Spellcasters could come in many types: healers, necromancers, druids (nature mages), warlocks (dedicated to combat effects), and more. There would probably only be one or 2 spellcasters in a single fortress, though.

     My third method of influencing magic is the most difficult but also the most reliable: gods. Once religion is updated, if enough of your fortress is one religion or pantheon, a priest could be appointed. If a certain number of priests were appointed, the most experienced of them would become a high priest. Sacrifices to influence the god(s) of the fortress would be in order once a priest comes along. Should they gain favor with the gods, they might get some nice effects. However, rival gods would attempt to aid invaders, etc.
     The last means of magical control would be with objecs, especially artifacts. These items would not always cause an immediately noticeable effect, but they would almost always be a boon to your fortress.

Edit: Afterthought/something I forgot to include
You would have a few noble-like residents who show up. A runemaker noble would almost always be a dwarf. Spellcasters, as suggested earlier, would be of varying race due to lack of ties with homeland. Lastly, the only priest that would be a noble is the High Priest(ess).
[/post]