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Author Topic: how do you want the magic system to?  (Read 4789 times)

wilsonns

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how do you want the magic system to?
« on: August 06, 2009, 09:44:09 am »

Title...
I want a skill system, with the types of magic, like necromancy, white magic, fire magic... and each type of magic have his own spells
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LordZorintrhox

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2009, 10:08:43 am »

Uh, I suggest this is moved to the suggestions sub-forum.  And I am pretty sure there are plenty of topics in that forum regarding this.

In all honesty, the most DF-esque system would probably be like the one in the HERO System RPG rules.  That system is "generic," so basically any ability is built out of a library of genericized (though usually not in name) rules that fit together like a puzzle.  Such a system would allow magical systems to be randomly generated along with the world, so each world would have its quirks.

Might make it hard to play, though.
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blue emu

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2009, 10:36:05 am »

Sounds cool to me... that way, you would have to LEARN magic, just like your Dwarf does.
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Beanchubbs

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2009, 10:44:47 am »

Couldn't you just have magic users as a certain military class? Instead of giving them weapons, you would give them a spellbook or something and then they would train their skills in the appropriate area (like archery ranges and barracks). I think that would at least be a good start for magic implementation then it can expand later.
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WhatDoesThisLeverDo

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2009, 10:47:07 am »

I'd rather it be kept less systematic, aka everytime you generate a world, a new set of magic is created. And like they said, that magic would have to be learnt. For example, perhaps a mage would simply have to study to get more spells or whatever, rather than training. Or through trade get new spells? Or immigration.
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Elliott_Thinas

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2009, 11:00:37 am »

I agree this of course belongs in the suggestions forum but as it's here I'll contribute. LL has a pretty cool system of magical swords that are able to freeze or burn enemies upon impact; my ideal magic system would allow the spells to deliver heat based attacks at a range, or attacks like paralysis.
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Murphy

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2009, 12:20:32 pm »

All this stuff like lightning shooting and flashy bazooka-fireballs just sounds horribly wrong to me. There are fire-breathing dragons, but for dwarves things are different. Power comes from labor, not spells. Some wounds take ages to heal and some are permanently crippling. No instant healing and no fireball-tossing.

Magic, if it is to be, should be very subtle and delicate thing, not a substitute for crossbows and heavy artillery. Dwarven runemasters could enchant weapons and foretell future. They could also use gems as charms. Elven druids could (very slowly) revive dead forests and bless natural springs so their water speeds up wound recovery. Goblin shamans could use (time- and sacrifice-consuming) rituals to summon demons and demons could lay curses on those who escape their claws. Human priests could sanctify places (so invading evil creatures receive some penalty), create holy water to scare off undead and remedy curses.

Sorry, got carried away. Anyway, subtlety is the key. A good degree of subtlety is when you can't easliy tell if the magic is working or not.

EDIT: Oh, now that I've said that, some dwarves might even not believe in magic altogether, saying that it does nothing or mostly nothing.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 12:34:42 pm by Murphy »
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Rowanas

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2009, 12:34:06 pm »

You assume too much about the civs, but yes, low magic is better in my opinion. I think there should be an element of BOOM involved, but not an entire branch dedicated to it. Runecrafters of all races should be allowed, and use their lowly magic to enchant gear and even straight stone (for catapults) for better effects. If you wanted to, a corp of battle mages should be possible, firing bolts of magic, but it should be a time-consuming and difficult process to train up any more than a handful. Making high magic difficult but flashy would mean that people wanting a high fantasy fort can go for it, while people who don't want to focus on it can just use the less impressive (although equally effective) low magic. RAWing it would also be nice.

As for the world gen idea, I like it. Having different spells known to different groups or civs for each gen would be nice and would add a lot to the whole thing in my opinion. In one world there may be a vast amount of necromancy and life magic, but very little utilised fire magic (raising cost/difficulty etc). Having lost tomes buried in HFS-like chambers deep underground would give players something to search for, possibly allowing new and wonderful types of magic unknown in the world beforehand.

Also, when mages become a proper doable thing, they will rock our socks off.

P.S. Summoning of all kinds of things should be included, possibly requiring a ritual room stocked with certain items depending on worldgen/creature.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Murphy

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2009, 12:40:54 pm »

Quote from: Rowanas
Making high magic difficult but flashy would mean that people wanting a high fantasy fort can go for it, while people who don't want to focus on it can just use the less impressive (although equally effective) low magic.
Yeah, but while I can tell my dwarves not to train high magic, invaders and others will still have it. Though as the game is moddable, this can be solved quite easliy.
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Rowanas

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2009, 12:45:31 pm »

Indeed, hence the mention of raws. I would oppose any magic system if it wasn't changeable in the raws.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

LordZorintrhox

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2009, 12:47:19 pm »

Ante Scriptus: (That isn't proper Latin!) I only try to lay out a solid argument for randomized, organic, "low" magic as Rowanas mentioned.  Actually, as I was writing this, Rowanas brought up his suggestion that is along these lines, so...

The thing is magic in general is hard to get right in a fantasy setting without falling into the usual pitfalls of it existing in the first place.  Most magical universes just sorta throw it in and give no rational for it, and allow it to do pretty much whatever it wants with no consequences and the only real downside being time and fairly uninteresting and easy to acquire resources.  This is especially true of many fantasy videogames. 

Look at D&D: past 12th level, magic users are so over-powered it's ridiculous.  The spells are also on the whole kinda unimaginative, involving the summoning of stone walls out of nowhere, "spongey" balls of rolling fire, and magical beasts decidedly outlandish and inappropriate for the character in question to even be aware of.  Much of that comes down to the DM, of course, but it is often glossed over.

This is all largely due to (in my opinion) the Disnification and commercialization of the entire idea of magic and the supernatural.  Just recently someone brought up including the "fair folk" in DF, but the real faeries, that is, the badass little bastards that will make your life hell, even if you've done nothing, just because they can.  Steal your children, kill your livestock, that kinda jazz.  Such things are not included in most fantasy because it is not the popular conception of the topic.  Magic is the same.  The depth of the topic is lost in spell lists and magic wands, artifacts we've created after the fact to romanticize magic, make it sorta "sciencey," perhaps as some way to appeal to the nerdy asthetic of SCIENCE!

The fantasy magic we are often presented with is plastic and orderly; there are discernible and predictable rules, theories even, that govern it.  There is no room for chaos, no room for the raw creativity and destructiveness of dealing with things beyond the scientific, observable world, things that exist outside of explanation.  Wizards are presented as people who can simply order the universe around like some play thing, rather than ask it do something for it.

The best example of this I can think of is the magic of the Discworld series.  There are two types: Wizardly (males) and Witchcraft (women).  Wizardly magic is more like pop magic: lots of books and wands and devices, magic punk if you will.  There are explicitly described as geeks, too.  They have laws that work exactly like conservation of mass, and spells require much preparation and experimentation to get right.  Witches on the other hand don't mess around with that crap; hell, it barely matters what objects they have sitting around to do their work.  The cauldron need not be made of anything in particular, it could even be a tin bucket, the wand doesn't even need to be a wand (they've used a wooden spoon and laundry soap before); they just sorta, you know, do it.  They don't have to force possession of an animal, like switching out the consciouness like a wizard would, they just simply ask to tag along for a bit, and do so.  No worries, no accidents.  Hell, a Wizard will never ask a creature to do something, they will order it to do so through mind control.

So some static system would be...disingenuous to the whole atmosphere of DF.  We have cannibalistic elves, for Armok's sake.  In a videogame it is hard to have something organic, but a randomly generated system would be far more appropriate and may approximate such an earthy paradigm.

What I'm getting at is specific effects for things are poppy, kinda bleh.  (Don't take this personally, please) A sword that paralyzes at long range?  Why?  Wouldn't you rather have a sword blessed by the power of Armok, via some totem or such, that could do anything, that might even affect combat in unnoticeable ways?  If you really want a sword of heat beams, what do you think you'd have to give to ask the universe to do it for you?  Your soul?  Another's soul?  Fielty to Armok?  Would you let demons possess you in your sleep for such power?

If real consequences of magic are not included, it implies that the universe properly behaves in that manner.  If it did, it would be completely destroyed by ambition and evil (what if the Golden Spear actually did give Hitler all-powerful might?).  It also means that magic would necessarily be mundane, boring, commonplace.  If I can combine an ounce of water, two raisins, and a pinch of sugar to create a highly flammable liquid (no joke, that is an actually 3.5ed spell component list), why aren't I doing so on a massive scale, creating energy from practically nowhere?  Magic is meant to momentarily violate the rules of the universe, the mundane, predictable day to day rules.  And to violate the laws of existence, you'd better damn well be prepared to deal with the cost and consequences.  Dwarves can't just go around firing heat rays and raining divine pestilence on the enemy willing nilly, because why have traps?  If I can train a dwarf to explode enemies off hand, why bother with anything but three champion level Warlocks?
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...but their muscles would also end up looking like someone wrapped pink steel bridge-cables around a fire hydrant and then shrink-wrapped it in a bearskin.

HEY, you should try my Dwarfletter tileset...it's pretty.
I make games, too

MrFake

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2009, 12:49:30 pm »

I'd like to see magic based off of the deities worshiped.  If a dwarf worships a god relating to fire, it receives some benefit relating to fire.  The ability to enchant a weapon with flames, to light torches (if lighting ever gets implemented), to have some power over magma, etc.  Given the unpredictable results of the RNG, and some creative pairing of skills to words, I think it'll be an opportunity for the perfect blend between utility, subtlety, and outright hilarity.

For simplicity, though, I'm hoping we'll just get a wimpy magic-missile-dwarf as a companion to the marksdwarf in combat.  At least at first.
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Beanchubbs

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2009, 01:18:11 pm »

I too prefer deity based magic in games. I don't know where it was at but I was reading a thread in dwarf fortress about deity magics and what not. They suggested that you'd have to build temples to certain deities and they'd give you back a fairly equal amount of magic power or whatever. But, they would be like nobles and demand some stuff to be put in their temples. I'll try to look for the thread and post a link to it when I find it.
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Yikes, the Orcs have a nasty language.  Traditional foreplay would be right out for them; how would they ever "say my name" for one another?  No wonder Ocrs are always so bloodthirsty and violent, they're getting sub-par action.

Rowanas

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2009, 01:33:52 pm »

Eurgh, the gods and the mages should be completely separate. A god should grant you boons based on how nice a temple room is, while mages should do it some other way. ANY other way.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Ultra-Towerdude

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Re: how do you want the magic system to?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2009, 01:52:38 pm »

Yeah, the deity thing sounds good, but for the magic-sparring, I'd say theyd learn in an archery range, or a library. Carpenter would make the shelves. Books? I don't know where they would come from.
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