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[Grendus]

I roughly recall a quote that any new technology seems like magic to a society that doesn't understand it. Think about the humans and dwarves trading. To the humans, dwarf steel seems like a magical metal that's stronger than the iron they know how to work. To the dwarves, steel is just what you get when you throw two chunks of iron, two chunks of coke, and two chunks of flux into a smelter with a furnace operator. It's expensive, but it's not magic, it only seems like magic.

The hard part with actual "defy physics" magic is deciding on the rules. LordZorintrhox has a good point, if magic can conveniently defy physics why follow physics at all. In the Inheritance series, magic causes physics to behave differently, but not be broken. For example, magic could make an arrow fly at a target, but it would still require the energy come from somewhere (later he kind of broke the whole magic-limit by introducing power storage and drawing energy from other sources, but the original concept is sound). The problem with this is that while it leaves the energy rules in place, magic can easily break every other rule. For example, it could refine the microscopic amounts of gold in the soil efficiently, or it can send messages across massive distances with no preparation. Magic, in this form, still makes a person who spends two years practicing magecraft much stronger than a person who spends two years practicing with weapons.

If magic is implemented, it would need severe drawbacks. It's not enough for a spell to, for example, require the same amount of energy as though someone had physically moved an object, there must be a real price to pay for using magic. For example, magic could be painfully inefficient - you could force a bolt to fly at a goblin, but you would have been better off just using a crossbow. In this case, magic would be a trade off, breaking the laws of physics would be something you do only because there is no other way to do it.

Alternatively, magic could be highly dangerous. Summoning a mighty warrior from legend could accidentally summon a c'thulu-esque monster instead. Trying to heal a warrior's broken arm could instead powder the bones, or mend them incorrectly causing him random spikes of pain. Conjuring water to fill a lake could instead flood your fortress, or conjure magma instead (not that that wouldn't be useful in itself, though it would probably mean you'd have to train a new magedwarf).





The idea of randomly generated magic would be fun as well, I must admit, though it would take a good deal more work to implement. It would be an interesting take on it though, and would be 'fun'.

[HammerHand]

From what I've seen of Toady's work, and what I've heard from his posts and podcasts, I want the same kind of magic that he does:  Magic based not on fantasy tropes, but on the legends and fables that fantasy is based on.  He does not see goblins as the D&D cannon fodder - he sees them as inherently evil baddies that come in, mess things up, steal your children, and are otherwise organized boogeymen.  They are the Goblins of yore.

This brand of magic, this ... relative perspective of reality, is exactly what is so difficult to pin down in a fantasy game.  In a game, it's difficult to get beyond the idea of magic as a tool to destroy your enemies - after all, most games are about destroying enemies, or about achieving specific goals.  I don't even necessarily want to see magic work in a way that easily benefits my fortress.  I want to see it work for itself, not for me - or for my Dwarves.

I want to see magic as... strange.  Unpredictable.  Unknown.  I want physics-breaking things to happen and still find them difficult to explain.  The magic of True Names, of places that are there but aren't, or only there at certain times.  The magic of stars and twilight, of shadows and the sun.

I don't want to see fireballs and magic missiles, or consecrate, or any of that carp.  Magic is a force of nature.  It is not controlled by anyone, nor does it allow the control of nature.  It's a very difficult concept to nail down, and all the more so because we're already dealing with a game about Dwarves, including Elves, Goblins, and Demons, and Fire Men.  Even if we can come up with a kind of magic that we can all agree on (which we won't), finding one that also makes a worthwhile addition to a game is a difficult task.

I want magic to simply exist.  If someone shows up at my fortress that can work a little bit of magic, fine.  But being a magician does not at all make him a military one.  Perhaps he's an oracle.  Perhaps he's more like the pied piper, and lures all my Dwarves away with the charming sound of a bagpipe, then ransomes my nobles for their return.  Perhaps he summons demons - and not to help me.

So... I'm not sure.  Again, it's a very difficult question.  I want the magic to work in a way that I can interact with it in the game, but not in a way that I will always interact with it in the same way, or in a way that necessitates that interaction.  I want magic to be about destiny, about dark forces, about charms and enchantment.  I want it to leave me with a sense of wonder, not with a sense of quantifiable bonuses and a field of dead enemies.

Magic is not a tool.  It is the unexplained, the mystic, the crazy.  Magic is the stuff of dreams and nightmares.

Or at least... that's how I see it in DF.  I can see Dwarves using, perhaps, the magic of runes and stones, but I'm not sure how that would translate to a valuable gaming experience in Dwarf Fortress without the question of why this magic isn't used everywhere, and why on earth anyone would opt out of it.

[jseah]

Magic is not a tool.  It is the unexplained, the mystic, the crazy.  Magic is the stuff of dreams and nightmares.

That's a tall order. 

Not least because part of programming something, so that a computer can run it, is codifying and attaching numerals to a concept. 
Whatever you do to the magic system, it'll just end up being a set of rules that do things.  Because, you know, if it's not that, a computer can't run it. 

And yeah, given the immense amount of dwarven ingenuity I've seen over here, we'll find a way to turn ANY magic system into a tool to help.  Failing that, it'll be a bauble to collect. 
Well, we farm mermaids, dam oceans and cave in entire cities.  I don't think a magic system is going to be very long before someone comes up with a way to exploit it. 

[LordZorintrhox]

Magic is not a tool.  It is the unexplained, the mystic, the crazy.  Magic is the stuff of dreams and nightmares.

I got it!  Toady can just lace the game with (more?) bugs!

But seriously, jseah is right.  It is very hard to capture that wonderment, that organic "what the fuck?!"-edness of a more 'earthy,' mystical magic in a computer program.

One thing that could be done would be something sorta mercurial and linked with belief; the magic may or may not work just right, but the more important affect of a spell or enchantment is your dwarfs feel better and get really happy thoughts.  Do I need to anoint my new born with whip vine salve to stave off disease?  Maybe not, but I feel way better having done so.  And maybe it will work, and maybe the kid will grow up to be a mighty warrior because of it.  The side effects could be so minor or so long running that it is almost imperceptible that anything was different...but forty years into a fortress you realize that, somehow, all your dwarves are mighty and seem to heal faster than the average dwarf, and they rarely ever bleed much at all, and every once in a while your civilians rip a goblin in half.  Coincidentally, most of the fortress worships Armok, and your grand priest is legendary and never misses an offering.

Or perhaps your Dwarves focus on Teshalred the Boatbearded, some Dwarven god of springs and ground waters.  After years and years, a pure spring miraculously sprouts up just outside the fortress walls, providing endless and clean water for the fortress.  Or one year and army of the dead appears, and a terrific rainstorm rises up and a flash flood (re)kills them all.

For such a system, all that would be in the raws would be a file containing things that can happen, and what spheres they are associated with.  The miraculous spring would be water/good, the deluge would be water/neutral, etc.  Status effects would be able to be built, but some things would be kinda hard not to hardcode (the spring, for instance) but if the format was powerful enough, why not?  Then on world gen, gods are randomly created and linked up randomly with at least a dozen possible effects.  So in the end, you'd never really know what will happen, but you can be assured it will be awesome.  This system would also feed into artifacts' properties being related to what/who the Dwarf that makes it worships.

Keeps the suspense, the thrill, and the mystery up while assuring you can use the mechanic in a more traditional manner: worship a god well, and good things will most likely happen.  Then again, could just be random events...

[Garfblarn]

I wan the wizard to be a noble, kind of like the dungeon master, who could have any kind of awesome requisite for showing up- like a certain number of megabeasts in cages, or having certain gems or new items act as magical reagents that attract wizards.

Their room demands would be equally eclectic- they should demand minimally 6 z-level tall towers. And, a certain amount of power (needs moar windmills!). He should act as erratically as the other nobles, except with more awesome. Things like sporadically creating tame magical creatures like a homunculus, or resurrect a random dead thing, or accidentally summon a demon of some kind.

Enchanting weapons would be really cool, but i feel like it should require extraordinary reagents like dragon tallow or the giant mutant killer tortoises that are sometimes created by other magic users in the world.

their combat role should be entirely aloof, toasting gobboes here and there for sport. however, they should bee-line directly towards megabeasts.

also, need steepled hats.

[detinith]

what if dwarves feeling strong emotions trigger magical effects, that don't necessarily have to relate to said emotions? like if a dwarf is exhausted from combat but still amongst enemies, a fire sparks and burns away half the map's grass and plants. or during tantrum, it starts raining. unconscious dwarves can wake up with a "vision", effectively a new strange mood. rather than having people studying magic, it just naturally occurs to all sentients randomly with no relation to context except for extreme emotion. AND it can be set to MAGIC:NO in the init.txt

[Lord Dakoth]

I want to see magic as... strange.  Unpredictable.  Unknown.

Magic is not a tool.  It is the unexplained, the mystic, the crazy.  Magic is the stuff of dreams and nightmares.

I see it the same way here. Magic is portrayed merely as an exciting way of killing enemies in other games.

It should not be so. Magic is the unknown. The unpredictable. The kind of thing that only half-insane, crazy maniacs pursue.

Magic should be unpredictable. So you got lucky and nuked half a dozen gobbos with a fireball. Try it again, maybe it will make your enemies stronger instead. Maybe it will backfire and obliterate your spellcaster's mind. Maybe it will simply blow up in your face.

You set out to accomplish a simple task with magic, but you have no idea what will actually happen. Magic should have massive potential gains, but also massive risks.

Also, magic should be uncommon. Games like the Elder Scrolls series (sorry Bethesda) where absolutely anyone can do magic reduce it to a mundane level.

The ability to do magic should instead be extremely rare. Like, maybe ten out of one million people can interact with the magical world at all. And only three of those ten actually have control over magic. And two of those three are terminally insane. You get the picture.

I also think that wizards should be extremely eccentric at the best (like Dumbledore) and completely bat-shit insane at the worst. It would not be uncommon to see a wizard who likes cat leather, pipe sections, prefers to consume Dimple Cup spawn, and absolutely hates Green Glass. Like so much that he will throw a tantrum whenever he sees a Green Glass anything.

Imagine the pure fun of a wizard tantruming. Maybe magic would go completely out of his control.

Also, magic has massive potential for HFS. You told your wizard to heat up a block of ice so you could have a little water? Guess what, he went a bit overboard and accidentally summoned a Spirit of Fire. Oh yeah, and that entire floor of your fortress is on fire.

[gordy]

Although it might be great to be able to recruit 'mages', wizards or sorcerers from among your fortress in much the same way as your military are, I'd much prefer if the magic practitioners among your people were rare. As has already been suggested, the ability to use magic should be something mysterious, much more of a calling than an occupation. Perhaps yes, a priest, wizard or sorcerer dwarf should be called like a Noble, but should have skills that they can learn. These might be metaphysical, alchemical, or pyrotechnic as have already been suggested. I'd like if at some point that noble recruited an assistant, or apprentice, however, so that the teachings could be passed down. Useful magics that would not necessarily break the game or make it too overpowering ( but would 'level' your mage through practice ), might be making magical icons to sew on to clothing, blessing or enchanting water sources or food to make them more beneficial, or spoil slower, disintegrating marked items ( think of a dwarf who could evaporate all that useless rock! )... but with the requisite risk of wrangling arcane powers to their whim.. strive too high too soon and it ends as well as sparring naked with adamantine weapons.......................

[Deimos56]

If it turns out that you can recruit magic users (Or... whatever you want to call them) from the fortress population, it would be best if there were some (Hidden. This is important) 'Magic Potential' (or something) personality trait or something to that effect. This would require you to, before turning Urist Mcrandomimmigrant the 27th into a magician, you'd have to perform some sort of test, to make sure the line immediately below doesn't happen.

Perhaps attempting to use magic without sufficient potential has Fun results, too.

Urist McRandomImmigrant has attempted a spell!
Urist McRandomImmigrant has failed with horrifying consequences!
Urist McMiner cancels dig: Interrupted by Stone Monster x2560

Edit: um.
It seems this is similar to what the above poster said. Sorry 'bout that.

[Holy Mittens]

A feeling I share with a lot of people is for flashy magic to be rare. Considering the nature of Dwarf Fortress, particularly the Fortress mode, that seems particularly appropriate.

Magic should, in my mind, be a lot like the magic from the Lord of the Rings. If you think about it, even Gandalf did very little in the way of big magic. He didn't throw around fireballs and shoot lightning from his fingertips. Magic most definitely existed, but it was mysterious and beyond the ken of pretty much everyone but quasi-immortal characters. It interacted with characters mostly in the form of artifacts (a bit like DF now, though most artifacts aren't especially magical).

While DF magic shouldn't be that rare, I think it's a good baseline. Artifacts should be a bit more fleshed out. An artifact amulet doesn't just increase the value of a fort, but potentially has some quasi-tangible effect (one that may not be readily apparent). Perhaps it protects the wearer from harm, or fire, or cold, or lets them breathe underwater. Maybe an artifact bucket purifies any water put into it, or turns it into booze, or a healing elixir. An artifact shirt could make someone harder to spot while sneaking, or let them spot sneakers more easily, or make hostile animals ignore them.

Environmental magic already exists, but can be expanded on as well. We've got undead, but there could be more. Settling in an evil biome doesn't only mean you'll have to contend with skeletal elk, but the very seep of evil can creep into the fortress itself. Babies born with tails. Animals that suddenly go berserk. Blood bubbling up from the ground. But if the ground is fed with the blood of sacrifices and an exceptionally cruel bunch claims the place, skeletal arms rise from the ground to harass invaders. Those babies with tails turn out to be part demons and can raise undead or are vicious fighters. But doing the right things (raising temples to righteous gods, or killing the demon that claims the lake, etc), and the biome will slowly become less evil.

Good biomes have pure drinking water, everyone walks around with a sense of ease, people heal faster... But if you don't act peaceful and respect the purity of the place, it turns against you. The river floods. Lightning strikes people, but leaves the surrounding wildlife unharmed. And the same as with evil biomes, you can despoil the good land too. Drive it neutral with plenty of blood sacrifices, then use more to entice a demon to move into the mountain.

Then you can get to magical creatures. Fairies that are mostly invisible and can give people nightmares, or keep food fresh, or improve the quality of a construction, or engrave perverted things on valuables. Gremlins come in and steal babies while their mothers sleep and kill livestock and rattle chains that wake people up. So on and so forth.

And then, of course, you have otherwise normal folk who use magic. The old crone who can give you a charm that protects you from poisons. The alchemist who can concoct a love potion. The shaman who protects a room from devious spirits. Rune casters predict the appearance of mega beasts. Druids who improve your harvest. Things like that.

The ones who do use magic flashily. The evil wizards who can fling fireballs, those are rare. They draw their powers from evil sources, demons and dark gods. They lead your enemies and try to raze the planet.

At least, that's what I think.

[Sizik]

Magic should, in my mind, be a lot like the magic from the Lord of the Rings. If you think about it, even Gandalf did very little in the way of big magic. He didn't throw around fireballs and shoot lightning from his fingertips. Magic most definitely existed, but it was mysterious and beyond the ken of pretty much everyone but quasi-immortal characters. It interacted with characters mostly in the form of artifacts (a bit like DF now, though most artifacts aren't especially magical).

One of the things about Lord of the Rings that most people don't know is that there were only five wizards, who were practically demigods.

[Lord Shonus]

There were only five Istari, but they did not have a monopoly on magic. Even including the other Maia in Middle Earth (Sauron, the Balrog), magic was not limited to them. Both elves and dwarfs use magic, it was simply subtle. It's even hinted in a few places that Hobbits have magic.

[Elliott_Thinas]

Lord of the Rings still had a pretty awesome magic system; there were magic buildings (like the tower at Isenguard) and things like undead armies and talking to animals, but there was pretty little in the way of WoW magic based attacks that take all the charm and mystery out of magic. If there are wizards they should wander and have strange abilities.

[Silver]

Thank you 2 people who seem to have read my post, ManaUser and Balathustrius.

100% from me as well.

[Quatch]

From what I've seen of Toady's work, and what I've heard from his posts and podcasts, I want the same kind of magic that he does:  Magic based not on fantasy tropes, but on the legends and fables that fantasy is based on.

A most excellent post.