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[profit]

This whole thread seems like a solution in search of a problem.

I don't know what the thread seems like.. but it makes me feel a little dirty reading it...

[Felblood]

I have no desire to perform eugenic experiments on my dwarves, so the false positives are the only aspect of the anti-eugenics system that will really affect me.

I like the idea of Urist McConspiracy deciding that the man is keeping him down, even when the deaths in question really are accidental.

True, we don't want to totally screw over the player, whenever a string of unusual deaths occurs, but if the penalties started out small, and then got more serious the longer the streak got, I think it could make for Fun politics, that are at least deeper than the current system, of nobles demanding random things, to simulate a demand for luxury goods.

It could start with a simple bad thought, about how hard his people are getting hit lately, and get progressively worse as the trend goes on. You could get a swarm of like immigrants, trying to support the ailing community, or immigrants like that could start avoiding your fortress, or eventually, you might even get sieged by some faction, that is opposed to eugenic culling. --all without necessarily being responsible.

Likewise, a simple streak counter isn't going to do it. It's far too easy for an actual eugenicist to hide his motives from something like that.

Dwarves should look at the last X deaths, (depending on their paranoia levels or whatever) and if the percentage of dwarves like himself if notably higher than the percentage of like dwarves in the fort, he should start to get worried.

To make these systems carry their weight, it might be cool to add in serial killers that pick their victims based on some trait pattern (the victims were all female blonds, etc.), which would have applications in dwarven crime mysteries as well.

Naturally, Urist McConspiracy is going to think the government is either behind the killings, or protecting the killer, for their own dark reasons. Google "Jack the Ripper Conspiracy Theory." Yeah.

[buman]

If this system were implemented it would probably need to be global because there could be so many related occurrence. For example instead of killing off all the red beards, you are only giving the reds armor or the best food, separating them in burrows.
Now if you have the dwarves detecting bias based on items and other perks then nothing within the scope of the fort is safe. Maybe the farmer gets a 1x2 room because you didn't have time or room to make it bigger, but the original embarking dwarves have huge rooms.

Eventually you need to be concerned about every aspect of your fort to the point of micro managing to handle these conspiracy dwarves. Rather then the original intention, to flesh out the personality of the dwarves, it creates a major hindrance.

[Hyndis]

But how would any of this improve gameplay?

[Shima]

I think everyone here is looking at this the wrong way, and Granite worded it poorly at best.

To me, this sounds like this: Urist McRavenhair has black hair.  He notices that, through whatever fault is happening, other black-haired Dwarves are dying alot.  Urist becomes afraid that the place may be cursed or that the hair color may be cursed or unlucky.  So to speak: self-placement superstition.  It makes logical sense to me, without going into the whole of eugenics and other things that have a rather unsavory aspect, and it seems to fit with Dwarves, because they'd strike me as being superstitious of such things.

[Granite26]

In case you all missed it, There's an honest to God quote from Toady saying 'Dwarves should recognize Eugenics programs targeting them'.

Arguing whether you think that's a good idea or not, or likely to be a problem, or whatever isn't really the point.  The point is: How can this be used to make the game more interesting, rather than a simple swat at bad players?

If this system were implemented it would probably need to be global because there could be so many related occurrence.

Economics would be a good solution to this...  Nobles already recognize when someone of lower class has better stuff than them.  Soldiers and Legendaries are the only people who get stuff without paying for it now, perhaps the same system could be extended (in a minor way) to them?

For everyone else, an economy based 'Nothing to buy' to compliment the 'insufficient work' status.

[LordZorintrhox]

Well, you could invert the results of the paranoid dwarves in relation to the Nobles: the nobles get pissed and blame random commoners for their demands being ignored, whereas the commoners get pissed and blame a random Noble for their "paranoid delusions" possibly resulting in tar-n-feathering or exile, rebellion, even murder - all fits rather well into the whole vague supernatural will-o-the-fort thing the player has going.  Very mythological, too: the will of the universe is in some way manipulating events just to screw with you.  Or not at all and shit happens.

Who knows? BWOOOO-ooooo-OOOO-oooooh-creepy-music.

[Silverionmox]

In case you all missed it, There's an honest to God quote from Toady saying 'Dwarves should recognize Eugenics programs targeting them'.

Arguing whether you think that's a good idea or not, or likely to be a problem, or whatever isn't really the point.  The point is: How can this be used to make the game more interesting, rather than a simple swat at bad players?

I'd rather not have it break the fourth wall, so dwarves with a certain property thinking that they are cursed, or have earned the wrath of a certain deity, them blaming someone/something else would be appropriate, while still generating unexpected complications for the player to deal with if he tries to run Überdwarf Fortress.

[Granite26]

In case you all missed it, There's an honest to God quote from Toady saying 'Dwarves should recognize Eugenics programs targeting them'.

Arguing whether you think that's a good idea or not, or likely to be a problem, or whatever isn't really the point.  The point is: How can this be used to make the game more interesting, rather than a simple swat at bad players?

I'd rather not have it break the fourth wall, so dwarves with a certain property thinking that they are cursed, or have earned the wrath of a certain deity, them blaming someone/something else would be appropriate, while still generating unexpected complications for the player to deal with if he tries to run Überdwarf Fortress.

I agree with you there... Any response should be targeting a game world entity.

I'm in favor of the dwarf blaming the fortress(society) for it.  Revolution (throwing a tantrum), attacking nobles, just leaving...

None of these really discourages the player from killing all of them at once though, although a slew of deaths has it's own fort level repercussions.

Another thing that wasn't called out explicitely:  If 90% of your fort has red hair, it SHOULD be mighty hard to convince the red hairs that it's not just coincidence.

One wonders if dwarfs should have the same positive bias and gross misunderstanding of baysian probability that people do.  It would be hillarious to have to write up probability functions that were explicitely WRONG just to model normal human dwarf bias

[Rowanas]

Mwhahaha. Given how prone people are to non-sequiturs and logical fallacies, I think illogical logic would be great.

for instance, if you roll a d6 (six sided die) and ask for the average, most people will tell you 3, but because of the actual numbers involved, the average for a d6 is 3.5

[lordcooper]

A good way to flesh this out could be for bias to be coded into dwarves personalities.

Most dwarves start out with no prejudice, but say Urist McAverage gets a grudge against Urist McRedbeard/Whiteskin/Shortbeard/Greeneyes.  If he has no friends with any one of these physical traits then Urist McAverage should get a bias against all dwarves with that trait.  He then gradually passes this prejudice along to his friends through conversation.

Eventually, this bias will be passed to a noble.  When that noble's mandates are not met, Urist McNoble would choose a dwarf with these 'bad' traits to sic the hammerer on.

Then we have the Redbeards/Whiteskins/Shortbeards/Greeneyes getting pissed when the last x amount of executions have been Redbeards/Whiteskins/Shortbeards/Greeneyes and tantruming/fleeing the fort/slaying nobles (as it is in fact the NOBLES who have ordered the deaths and NOT THE PLAYER.

[Rowanas]

But that takes no account of Toady's (armok be with him) intentions to make eugenic programs recognisable by the dwarves. If the player wipes out the blondebeards, are they going to take it out on the noble?

[Felblood]

I agree that the dwarves should blame their society, and not the player or their fates.

However, I don't think it's necessary for the entire movement to target specific dwarves, so much as to shun and distrust the fort as a whole.

It's okay for Urist McConspiracy to try to assassinate random politicians, but I don't think we need dwarves to do that in aggregate, until we have the foundation in place for political schisms and rebellions, and can integrate the process into that.

I wonder at whether the politicians accused of being corrupt should be completely random. It's much simpler to code that way, and these guys are going to be (for the most part) nuts, but dwarves getting ideas about politicians, and blaming them for things, is a can of worms that might get opened anyway, at some future date, and I'm okay with this linking into that.

[ArkDelgato]

Now, combine this with worship and you get a whole wacky world of fun

Urist Greybeard worships the god of murder.

Cog AlsohasaGreybeard is murdered.
same with his grey bearded family.

Urist thinks that Greybeards are chosen by his god and only associates himself with greybearded dwarves.

Soon he has enough followers to be a significant threat, and crusades against the rest of the fort as a sacrifice to the god.

This would be an okay mid-game preventable event.

[Felblood]

anything + a murder cult = Fun

This has the potential to lead to zany fun times all on it's own. The McConspiracy assassination trials would be the kind of rare, but unforgettable, dynamically generated experience, that makes the DF of today into the DF it always promised to be.

The biggest danger that I can see here is emulating too mcu hreal life, when we should be imitating fantasy. Having the rise of Malcom McX and his red bearded panthers happen in your fort is going to feel more than a little awkward.

It's not like getting sieged by elephants, or nuking elves with lava.

Okay. Maybe it is like nuking elves, but still... Dwarf on Dwarf racism hits a little close to home for some people, and I wonder if there's a way to mitigate that, without sacrificing the story telling potential that represents.