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[Deon]

Way It Meant to Be

Ok guys, I am tired of various total conversions and other huge addons to the game.

I've decided to play the vanilla game and after all mods suddenly noticed that there's a lot of wrong things. Well, they are here mostly because Toady spends his time with the code and not with the game tweaks now.

Fish damage, cat mouth bug are amongst them and are well-known. However there're other problems which I am going to address.

Also some "fun" non game-breaking additions like various attacks for creatures are good too. Suggest your types of attacks for existing creatures.

The mod is WIP so I want you to contribute, I can't spot all discrepancies.

Current features:
Fish attack 1:4 from 1:6.
Cat mouth fix: cats can carry items with mouth -> can bring vermin how it's supposed to be.
Cave spider venom is not stunning, but paralyzing, however it's not permanent now.
All quadruped creatures gain joints.
Tails can be broken.
Bears, monkeys and apes are humanoid, not quadruped.
Monkeys get "EQUIPS" tag (so they can wear/wield things they steal).
Brook lamprey vermin bites with temporary venom.
Arrow/bolt damage lowered from 100 to 50/65, they still have the same crit. modifiers.
Goblins do not wear socks/underwear (I think it's optional).
Creatures with horns gain butting attacks if they had only kicks.
Cougars and Cheetahs are are a bit faster.
Cat-like creatures lose "innate" swimming ability and gain SWIMS_LEARNED (so they have to learn how to swim or die).
Crocodiles and alligators gain faster swimming speed (1000, like on land).
Spiders have 8 eyes, not 2.
Giant cave spider gets a breathing sack (such a huge insect can't live without breathing system).

[Gurpel]

"I've decided to play the vanilla game and after all mods suddenly noticed that there's a lot of wrong things. Well, they are here mostly because Toady spends his time with the code and not with the game tweaks now."

I read your post, and after all those words suddenly noticed that there's a lot of wrong things.

Tails can be broken. - this might not make sense; it would be silly to have a wrestler kill a cougar by breaking it's tail
Bears, monkeys and apes are humanoid, not quadruped. - bears? you have seen bears right? i have a dog who can stand on it's hind legs, maybe we should make dogs humanoid.
Monkeys get "EQUIPS" tag (so they can wear/wield things they steal).this would be hilarious but unrealistic. also potentially fun, like if one managed to steal a legendary weapon
Brook lamprey vermin bites with temporary venom.  lampreys are not poisonous...
Goblins do not wear socks/underwear (I think it's optional). okay, maybe YOU treat underwear as optional, but..
Cougars and Cheetahs are are a bit faster. maybe not cougars. a lots of things can run just as fast as a cougar, like alligators or bears (btw a bear runs on 4 legs.)
Cat-like creatures lose "innate" swimming ability and gain SWIMS_LEARNED (so they have to learn how to swim or die). cats can swim well, they just dont like to.
Crocodiles and alligators gain faster swimming speed (1000, like on land). a crocodile is capable, over short distances, of running much faster than it can swim.

anyway, so that this post isn't completely negative, there is actually a fix for the cat mouth bug over at the wiki. see
http://dwarf.lendemaindeveille.com/index.php/Cat_cancels_Store_Item_in_Stockpile:_Too_injured

[Slogo]

Well for combat purposes wouldn't the bear be fighting on two legs? I can see it making sense in that way.

Either way it does seem like a nice set of small changes.

[Duke 2.0]

 If possible, add in proper temperatures for stones that would be lava-proof in real life? Thus not only Bauxite would be the lavastone.

[blah28722]

From the to do thread.

Although I like to watch the Countdown decrease, it has ceased to be a motivator for me and has even been a hindrance at times.  Instead, here is the list of remaining items for the next release.  I'll be coloring/modifying this post as work progresses.  The list is more or less fixed, though there might be minor changes, omissions and additions as I go along.

Keep in mind that this is the list of remaining items as of the original posting, not the total list of changes for the next version.

...

Creature Raw Update (last changed Aug 3)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

• Subterranean Creatures
• Standard Creatures

...

[/list]

I think it'd be a good idea to wait until the next version, just in case you'll end up doing what Toady already did.

[Deon]

Next version may be in a year or 1,5 .

this might not make sense; it would be silly to have a wrestler kill a cougar by breaking it's tail

You can't kill anything by breaking it's tail. Just cause a pain, and you must know that it's like breaking a smaller spine, it's really painful and possible in real life (don't try it on your cat).

bears? you have seen bears right? i have a dog who can stand on it's hind legs

But bear is not a dog. If you think about it, bear is closer to a human than to a dog. And yes, bear can grab things with it's front paws, it can even catch fish and carry logs. I saw it.
Gameplay-wise it doesn't add anything but ability to grab you and bash you with paws.

okay, maybe YOU treat underwear as optional, but..

It'll be optional for those who hate thousands of goblin socks everywhere after a few sieges. It's ok but if you have a lower framerate or a lot of hauling jobs, I'll make a version to help this.

lampreys are not poisonous...

Yeah, but they suck blood if attack. Vermin can't suck blood, so it would be a nice change. It's not necessary, mind you.

a lots of things can run just as fast as a cougar, like alligators or bears (btw a bear runs on 4 legs.)

Yeah, I think the overall speedis a bit broken with unability to separate attack speed and movement speed. I think cougars will stay as they are then . Still elf runs faster than cheetah, I gave them speed 800 (cheetah). I think I'll need a separate body for bears: so they move on 4 but can grab things, it's easy to do.

Monkeys... [EQUIPS]... this would be hilarious but unrealistic.

Nah, monkeys can use items nicely, I even saw a show where they taught a monkey how to shoot an air pistol. They can use weapons, but remember that they have no skill and cannot learn, so it makes sense that they do in a very bad manner.

cats can swim well, they just dont like to.

Well, I am not sure about this... Can you propose something else which makes them afraid of water? I think that ability of ALL creatures to be unable to drown is a bit strange.

a crocodile is capable, over short distances, of running much faster than it can swim.

and much faster than a man or a dwarf. Still they swim not slower than a man walks. So I can make them to run faster, but it can make them lethal.

so that this post isn't completely negative

It's not negative, it's a discussion . I need feedback to keep working.

there is actually a fix for the cat mouth bug

Thanks, but as I you see it's in the list, so it's done already .

If possible, add in proper temperatures for stones that would be lava-proof in real life?

Yeah, I want to make it too. I just haven't done it yet.


I think that it's a good idea to reduce the plant growth rate and lower the values, so the booze roast is not as valuable as five bronze axes, what do you think?

[Duke 2.0]

 I have most plants restricted to one season, the only plants that can grow in seasons other than Spring and Summer are grains which take two months to grow, thus meaning plants planted in Spring are harvested in the Fall. Veggies are planted in the Spring and harvested in the Summer. Berries are left alone, and can only grow in Spring and Summer.

 And let me tell you, this makes things rather hardcore.

[Deon]

Well, hardcore? No, I think it's translated "as it should be", because with current extreme plant growth there's no challenge in food at all. Why is it there then at all?

I've played with settings close to yours, and it's ok if you do the planting works in time. Also somehow brings the feeling of that "first winter" in df .

[Slogo]

What about adding breeding tags to more creatures, possibly even including dragons and hydras.

Make snailmen drop shells when killed.

Look into tweaking dragons so they don't kill themselves in lava and can possibly fly.