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[axus]

Yeah, I've found that farming/cooking/brewing/butchery/tanning require the most micromanagement until you get enough redundancy.  Anything that deals with perishable goods can require popping someone in and out of the job, because another dwarf is asleep or partying or whatnot.

Also, hauling things to the depot is time critical, but can interfere with other important jobs.  I'd love to have everyone put depot hauling above item hauling in priority, but below food-related tasks.  Also, juggling the depot trader with other tasks can be annoying.

[Zemat]

I think instead of setting up individual priorities for dwarves we could use the job screen to push up or increase the priority of individual tasks. That could be done by modifying the priority of current tasks or maybe by accessing an extra screen were we could modify the base priority for task types.

Also what would help the most to reduce the micromanagement nag would be to add more auto programmed tasks just like tanning, butchery and looming work right now by letting players tweak individual workshops to set up which task should be performed automatically once there's enough materials to work on.

For example I never do cooking because the benefits or doing so rarely merit the amount of micro it requires to do the job. Cooking is mostly unnecessary unlike brewing. Also fish cleaning jobs should appear automatically every time you get raw fish just like butchering works. Again, these new autoprogrammable jobs should be optional like the others are in the current version.

Edit: Just to make thinks less confusing. Instead of using the orders screen to set up which job orders should be issued automatically (which potentially could make the list enormous). Each individual workshop should have an option to set up which tasks orders that can be carried on it should be auto issued.

[ November 16, 2007: Message edited by: Zemat ]

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Aquillion:
I would disagree with the idea that micromanagment is merely a "playstyle".  At the moment, it's pretty difficult to manage a fortress without micromanaging jobs occasionally.

That's true, but I'm not really sure if occasionally having to switch jobs around is really in the spirit of what is meant by 'micromanagement'. It is technically an act of micromanagement, but when one complains about there being 'too much micromanagement', one is I think referring not to single instances of tweakery, but the presence of entirely too much of it.

The original post says: 'Seriously, it's driving me nuts, I love DF but having to constantly set my unemployed dwarves to mining, then smoothing, then farming, then whatever other task is getting tiresome.'

Which indicates, to me, an addiction to micromanagement which is not justified by the benefits of micromanagement.

quote:I think what we need instead is a better interface for it.  I would like to be able to have a management screen where I can specify, say, that I want to maintain around X primary craftdwarves, Y primary growers, Z primary brewers, and so on.  The game would then automatically adjust work priorities to try and keep that many dwarves available, picking the most skilled dwarves for each task.

I do agree with this. I am fully in favor of improving the way micromanagement takes place, just not with causing dwarves to act on their own (mind you, this could actually be interesting as an optional playmode, but I would want it to be more in depth than this).

quote:Rating every individual job sounds like horrible micromanagement, and I'm opposed to it.  However, it would be nice to be able to set a dwarf's primary job.  

I don't know, I don't think it would be very much micromanagement at all, and it would be quite flexible. Perhaps you are picturing it differently, my notion of it would be as follows:

Basically you would just tack on the interface from trade prioritization to your jobs. By default, dwarves would start with their primary skill/skills at top priority, and hauling tasks at bottom+1 priority.

Dwarves would do any job with a priority over zero, but would prefer to accept jobs with higher ratings.

I don't think this is actually any more micromanagement than your primary skill idea, it just adds additional flexibility.

quote:A dwarf with a primary job will wait briefly before accepting anything else, will cancel other jobs midway through if their primary job becomes available, and won't accept any other job if one of their primary jobs is available at the moment.  (Dwarves with no primary job behave the way they do now.)

I would also add that I find this particular part of it to be problematic. Do you have any idea how angry I get when a dwarf tromps across the map in order to pick something up only to, at the last moment, decide that he might have to like a bit of lunch instead?

This would multiply the occasions this would happen manyfold. Intuitively it would only happen if you reassigned priorities, but this is unfortunately not the extent of it. It would also happen whenever:

1. There are fewer particular tasks than dwarves able to do them.
2. The dwarf doing one of those tasks decides he might have a bit of lunch

So you could conceivably have hauler t mchauler walk across the map for stone, and then at the very last minute decide to have a bit of lunch. Another dwarf whose primary trade is stone haulery has his ears perk up: it's time for him to go get that stone! But what's this? As he ambles over to the stone, he feels pangs of hunger, and decides to go have a bit of lunch.

I just don't think it would work out very well.

[Sean Mirrsen]

There is an immensely better solution, interface-wise, to the whole secondary labor mess.

As was said, priorities are the way to go. For designating them, an interface system akin to the trade liaison's import/export priorities should be used.

The five priorities:
0|----  Dark gray color. Unavailable. Job will not be undertaken even if the adamantine demon forces the dwarf.
-|0|---  Light gray color. Below normal. Unless any of the higher-priority tasks are available, the dwarf will do this one. Dwarf will go eat/drink/sleep as usual.
--|0|--  White color. Normal. This is default for all starting professions of the dwarves. Dwarf will go eat/drink/sleep as usual.
---|0|-  Yellow color. High-pri. Use this to make a dwarf prefer a job to the normal ones. Dwarf will pause to sleep as usual, but will attempt to endure thirst and hunger for the duration of one task. Bad thoughts are generated from this.
----|0  Red color. Need Done Yesterday. Only one job per dwarf can have this. Once you set one to Red, any other Red become Yellow. Dwarf will not go on break if this task is active, and will always do this task no matter what other ones are active. Dwarf will endure normal hunger and thirst as long as the task is active, and will endure drowsiness as long as possible. Merely having a red task generates unhappy thoughts like "being forced to work", and the mentioned stressing conditions will rapidly degrade the dwarf's attitude to work. Should easily bring an ecstatic dwarf down to "fine" and lower.

The interface will generally remain the same, but the labors screen will show color codes, there will be the "slider" in one of the top rows of the menu for the currently highlighted labor, and adjusting/selecting labors will be done with number keys (as opposed to the +/- now), while the enter key will retain its toggle between "normal" and "disabled" states.

[Tyrion]

Even simpler, instead of sliding scales, just have multiple hits of Enter on the labor menu toggle the priority level - indicated by colors and symbols, maybe.

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Sean Mirrsen:
<STRONG>There is an immensely better solution, interface-wise, to the whole secondary labor mess.

As was said, priorities are the way to go. For designating them, an interface system akin to the trade liaison's import/export priorities should be used.

The five priorities:
0|----  Dark gray color. Unavailable. Job will not be undertaken even if the adamantine demon forces the dwarf.
-|0|---  Light gray color. Below normal. Unless any of the higher-priority tasks are available, the dwarf will do this one. Dwarf will go eat/drink/sleep as usual.
--|0|--  White color. Normal. This is default for all starting professions of the dwarves. Dwarf will go eat/drink/sleep as usual.
---|0|-  Yellow color. High-pri. Use this to make a dwarf prefer a job to the normal ones. Dwarf will pause to sleep as usual, but will attempt to endure thirst and hunger for the duration of one task. Bad thoughts are generated from this.
----|0  Red color. Need Done Yesterday. Only one job per dwarf can have this. Once you set one to Red, any other Red become Yellow. Dwarf will not go on break if this task is active, and will always do this task no matter what other ones are active. Dwarf will endure normal hunger and thirst as long as the task is active, and will endure drowsiness as long as possible. Merely having a red task generates unhappy thoughts like "being forced to work", and the mentioned stressing conditions will rapidly degrade the dwarf's attitude to work. Should easily bring an ecstatic dwarf down to "fine" and lower.
</STRONG>

Having it not just be straight priorities is a kind of neat way to do it. The only comments I would make are:

1. In terms of starting tasks, I agree that by your chart their starting professions should be at white. What I would add is like I said above, hauling tasks should be at a lower priority by default but they should still be automatically set (l. gray by your chart).

2. The yellow/red thing will be trouble to balance. Not a criticism at all, but if it were to be implemented I hope there would be a bit of discussion on balance because I think you could very easily create conditions where people would use it always or not use it at all, and very hard to create conditions where it was being used a moderate amount appropriately.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Yellow is fine to use always, as long as your dwarves are all ecstatic. It taxes them more, and generates unhappy thoughts, and stuff like that, but it's useful for get-it-done-quick tasks that you'd like the dwarves to focus on, because it lets you gain a little effectiveness when you can afford it. Another reason to keep the enter-toggle is to allow to "enter" on a yellow/red labor to turn it to white, without fiddling with number keys. Red should be used in the extreme-est cases only, because it will rapidly cause a dwarf to tantrum, but it yields the maximum effectiveness you can wring out of him, for those mood-related tasks and flood control.

And yes, hauling labors can and should be set to the secondary lgt.gray state if at all possible.

[Maehadoc]

Some streamlining for labour management would be great. It can be time consuming try to get your dwarves to do what you need.

I would like it so that instead of each labour option being off by default (except for starting skills and hauling, of course), the system be changed so that every skill is set to "unspecialized" by default and changable to "specialized" or "forbidden." When a job comes up, dwarves who have "specialized" that job will do it first. If there is no specialized dwarf or the job has gone idle too long, an unspecialized dwarf will do it instead. It would always send the task to dwarves with the highest related skill first. Dwarves forbidden to do that job will never undertake it, however.

[Align]

quote:Originally posted by Sean Mirrsen:
<STRONG>There is an immensely better solution, interface-wise, to the whole secondary labor mess.

As was said, priorities are the way to go. For designating them, an interface system akin to the trade liaison's import/export priorities should be used.

The five priorities:[...]</STRONG>

This sounds great. No more "oh shit the cave is flooding but someone is going to pull the lever phew wait where the hell are you going what do you mean you're going to lunch?!"

[ November 18, 2007: Message edited by: Align ]

[Sean Mirrsen]

Thinking it over, yeah, perhaps even ALL labours could be set to secondary as default. There is the problem of the difficulty of getting the right dwarf for the job (I want ONLY my legendary engraver do the pictures, thankyouverymuch) if everybody have the labor by default though... So, yeah, nice as an option, perhaps at embark, but I wouldn't use it for everything.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

quote:Originally posted by Sir Edmund:
<STRONG>i dont think getting rid of micromanagment is a good idea but the ability to set priotiy of work within each dwarf would be handy such as

1 represents low priority and 5 high

Bowyer 5
engraving 4
mining 3
farming 2
hauling 1

i think this kind of feature would be rather awesome, but i do enjoy micromanagment though it does get a tad annoying when your waiting for your next migrant wave/caravan and you have to keep pausing to tell folk what to do</STRONG>

The priority thing is a good idea.  The micromanagement thing should be optional for the player to get into.  Also, if you don't use it, your dwarves should do other tasks that you might not want them to.

[Gnomechomsky]

I'd be very happy with one more setting for each type of labor (in addition to on/off): "priority".  It could be a yellow color on the list.  Dwarves would always prefer any available priority job to anything else.

[Sector 7]

You should need 50 dwarves and a noble with good management skills to unlock the ability to mass-micromanage (oxymoron lol)

[MickEfinn]

My idea needs no real fancy indicators or baphmodads, all it involves is splitting the work tree in twain. But keep all the skills... well, see below.

To trim some meat off the long, long list of jobs available (with engraving seemingly above giving birth in my fortress  :p) split the job list into "Jobs" and "Labour".

Jobs have importance, you get a title! You wanna do your job first. But if there is no wood for the carpenter, for example, instead of "No Job" he swaps to the labour.

Labour, while skill giving, is less preferable, might not generate the same happy thoughts about work, and is the pile of skills that any boobie can do. Hauling Wood needs no science degree, nor should cutting trees need anything more than an eager dwarf plus an axe. Mining is serious business though, that oughta be a Job.

Anyhoo, a dwarf can have all the jobs and labours he wants to take on. But will do Jobs first. Peasants start with no jobs at all, and the immigrants with the titles like "Bonecarver" or whatnot have that job on by default. And like how the workshops can have preferences on WHO or what skill level (which keeps my four mason shops with dabbling till above average on block duty, and legendary doing all the statues) any JOB done could simply reuse/steal the same window and use it there. Don't want any high level miners digging that last bit of magma? either designate a single dwarf, or set the skill level required to novice and get that new guy to do it. Wanna engrave a single spot or a room, and don't want that spare carpenter who's dabbling to do it? when you finish the designating, and tap space, the screen will blink to that labor window and you can either pick that one legendary, or set the skill level to ones you want doing the job.

And the beauty is, the way the game seems to be laid out, one should be able to have single setting in the init file to turn this off if you don't like it. All that would be "permanent" would be in the 'V' window.
'V' 'P' 'L' for the labour skills.
'V' 'P' 'J' for the jobs.

Oh and if you don't care who does the job, like the initial mining or whatnot, then all it is is an extra enter tap.

Who knows? Considering all the work he did in the depot window, a quick fiddling  like this might help get his juices flowing for the upcoming army saga.

Just a thought from someone with very little sleep mind you, but I do not see any major terrible issues with it. Any thoughts?

[Chthon]

I like the idea of priority levels.  I'd break it down to 3 separate levels though.  mmidiate > [N]ormal >

• pportunity.  

  To set these levels on jobs, you highlight the job that you'd like to adjust, and press enter once for

• pportunity, twice for [N]ormal, or three times for mmidiate.  You also have the option of pressing
  • [N] or [d] for disable for a quick key.  This would not interfere with the interface as it is right now as [v]iew currently does not use capital letters in this mode.  Only lower case is used to go to inventory.

    Noble jobs are not selectable, neither are Depot or Harvest tasks.  These tasks should by default be set to the

    • pportunity level so as to not interfere with more important tasks.

      Also, it should be possible to set multiple tasks to the same priority level with them competing for attention as they do now.

      Personally, with the system as it is I have many dwarves that I constantly turn on and off the hauling jobs for due to these jobs interfering with time critical jobs that they should be performing.  Here is an example of how I'd like to handly my butchering and tanning operations using this proposed system:

      Primary butcher jobs:
      butcher
      tanner [N]
      hauling

      • When my hunter drags a corpse in, I'd like to see my butcher drop what he's doing and butcher the damn corpse before it rots.  Nothing worse than wasting one of my 50k =deer bone bolt= just to have the corpse rot and only get bones.
        When not butchering he will assist in tanning hides, he won't be the best, but fewer hides will rot as a result.  
        When bored, he will provide unskilled labor.

        Primary Tanner jobs:
        Tanner
        Butcher [N]
        Hauling

        • Ok, this is fairly similar.  When there is a hide to tan, he will do so, but if there are no hides, he will instead help out the butcher, stopping only when a hide becomes available.  Hauling as well is done whenever he gets the opportunity to become bored.

          Primary Bone Carver/Craftsdwarf:
          Bone Carving
          Stone Crafting [N]
          Wood Crafting

          • 
            Butchering [N]
            Tanning
          • 
            Hauling

          • The idea here is his primary job is to carve bones for my fortress.(Usually for hunting ammunitions)  When there are no bones, he will either work stone, or help make more bones for him to work.  If nothing else is available, he will attempt to carve wood, tan hides, or just provide basic labor.

            Tell me what you think of this write-up.  

            I also think that these settings should be unlocked with different Manager levels.  At first you just choose the jobs they can do.  When you hit about 20 dwarves, you can choose between

          • jobs and [N] jobs.  At around 50 dwarves you gain the ability to choose jobs and have full functionality.  

            Part of the reason for this is when you have few dwarves, you really don't need to worry about who does what and when.  Well, you do, but you only have a handful of dwarves to work with.  Later on though, this will get tedious.  This will simulate your manager stepping back and taking a less direct approach to controlling what goes on and when.  After all, how much can one dwarf do?